I am amazed that no one has referenced this TVTropes page yet...
beetnemesis Send a noteboard - 23/04/2011 07:45:14 PM
I recommend clicking on the link, but here's the basic article:
Punk Punk
Punk Punk genres are a generalization of Cyber Punk into other periods or with other genres mixed in. In the 1980s, authors like William Gibson and Bruce Sterling wrote dystopian novels set twenty minutes into the future, where they explored themes such as the impact of modern technology on everyday life, the rise of the global datasphere as an arena for communication, commerce, conflict, and crime, and invasive cybernetic body modifications. The heroes of these stories were marginalized, seedy, and rebellious, in other words "punks". Bruce Bethke called this Cyberpunk, and it was good.
The original noir flavor of Cyber Punk had disillusioned, cynical protagonists striving against overwhelming odds to avoid total defeat. As other authors latched onto the genre they added another, more optimistic, flavor with badass longcoats wearing mirrorshades and using Impossibly Cool Weapons and other gadgets to wipe out the opposition. They also took the Punk to other time periods and settings, creating Punk Punk genres. Common for all such genres is that the technology (and/or magic) level is turned way up, an ultra-modern sensibility is grafted on, and that the protagonists are somewhere along the Sliding Scale of Anti-Heroes living in a Privately Owned Society. The world is also on a sliding scale, from a World Half Empty to A World Half Full (or, rarely, even more optimistic).
Shared genre conventions
Technology (and/or Magitech)...
* ... is ubiquitous and, in retro-futuristic settings, considerably more advanced than that available in the corresponding period.
* ... is a means to control the public. The actual form of government varies, but it is usually somewhat sinister and oppressive (Dystopia, duh?).
* ... provides some kind of medium for global or at least wide-ranging communication that is driven by research and/or business, piggybacked by military/political needs.
* ... is a strategic resource. In our timeline, this started in the 19th century with railroads, the telegraph, and the machine gun; in later settings wars are lost and won in cyberspace, before the army even leaves its barracks. Speaking of the army, while most of the soldiers are using relatively crude weaponry, there will often be an organization whose units pack state-of-the-art weapons and equipment for black-ops work.
* ... can make people stronger, faster, more perceptive, etc — for instance through body modifications/prosthetics. The science of medicine is typically quite sophisticated.
* ... can create Artificial Humans, Clockwork Creatures, or Ridiculously Human Robots.
* ... is developed with little regard for harmful consequences to society or nature.
If there is magic, it may...
* ... be simply another branch of science that provides Magitech, or
* ... be Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane, or
* ... have to do with powers and beings beyond human experience.
In particular, it does not involve divine miracles, and will not depend on faith. Nor does it require a Deal With The Devil. Magic users might suffer deleterious sideeffects.
----------------------------
Examples
A Punk Punk variant either exchanges the basic technology for that of another historical period or mixes in another genre.
By period
* Stone Punk: (Stone Age) Bamboo Technology based Punk. The Flintstones plays this for laughs, and is probly the most famous version.
* Sandal Punk: (Bronze and Iron Age) Ancient Astronauts (or Atlantis) impact the dawning classical civilization.
* Clock Punk: (Renaissance/Baroque) Leonardo da Vinci-style clockwork mechanica and gunpowder. Gormenghast, some of the Discworld novels. Assassin's Creed II plays it literally by having Da Vinci himself build some Clockpunk machines.
* Steam Punk: (Victorian Era) Steam-powered machinery in the vein of H.G. Wells and Jules Verne. This setting is often more romantic, heroic, and optimistic than other Punk Punk settings, but some works in this genre are every bit as cynical as the darkest Cyber Punk.
* Diesel Punk: (1920s - 1940s) Internal combustion engines and electricity. A fairly rare setting (well, compared to Steam, Atom, Cyber, and Bio); until the release of BioShock (which blends Diesel with Bio Punk) the most famous example was probably 2004's Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow.
* Atom Punk, aka Raygun Gothic : (1940s - 1950s) The world of pulp sci-fi where everything from inter-galactic space ships to pens is atomic powered. Fallout series is a great example, running on Science!
* Cyber Punk: (1980s - 1990s) The original Punk Punk setting, see the first paragraphs on this page. It used to be a futuristic genre, but Society Marches On.
* Post Cyber Punk: (Twenty Minutes into the Future) a much less dystopian successor to Cyber Punk. It is now extremely popular to combine this with The Great Politics Mess Up or The War On Terror.
* Bio Punk: (Twenty Minutes into the Future) An alternative to Cyber Punk with genetic engineering instead of computing. Gattaca might be the most recognizable example of Bio Punk, although The Island Of Doctor Moreau is a notable precursor.
By genre:
* The Apunkalypse: Punk meets After The End, as disaster reduces civilization to tribes of marauding scavengers.
* Cattle Punk: (The Western/Space Western) A typical John Ford film setting, only with things like robots, super-weapons, and wacky gadgets tossed in.
* Desert Punk: Punk + survival in a super-harsh environment. The desert may be Desert Planet or Burned-out Earth.
* Dungeon Punk: (Medieval European Fantasy) A heavily magical world where spells and enchanted artifacts take the place of modern technology.
* Fantastic Noir: (Urban—usually) a mixture of the noir detective story with the more colorful aspects of fantasy and science fiction.
* Gothic Punk: (Urban Fantasy) The punks are also goths. The world is secretly controlled by various supernatural creatures to whom humans are merely pawns.
* Ocean Punk: (Pirate) Punk in a mostly (or wholly) oceanic setting.
Punk Punk
Punk Punk genres are a generalization of Cyber Punk into other periods or with other genres mixed in. In the 1980s, authors like William Gibson and Bruce Sterling wrote dystopian novels set twenty minutes into the future, where they explored themes such as the impact of modern technology on everyday life, the rise of the global datasphere as an arena for communication, commerce, conflict, and crime, and invasive cybernetic body modifications. The heroes of these stories were marginalized, seedy, and rebellious, in other words "punks". Bruce Bethke called this Cyberpunk, and it was good.
The original noir flavor of Cyber Punk had disillusioned, cynical protagonists striving against overwhelming odds to avoid total defeat. As other authors latched onto the genre they added another, more optimistic, flavor with badass longcoats wearing mirrorshades and using Impossibly Cool Weapons and other gadgets to wipe out the opposition. They also took the Punk to other time periods and settings, creating Punk Punk genres. Common for all such genres is that the technology (and/or magic) level is turned way up, an ultra-modern sensibility is grafted on, and that the protagonists are somewhere along the Sliding Scale of Anti-Heroes living in a Privately Owned Society. The world is also on a sliding scale, from a World Half Empty to A World Half Full (or, rarely, even more optimistic).
Shared genre conventions
Technology (and/or Magitech)...
* ... is ubiquitous and, in retro-futuristic settings, considerably more advanced than that available in the corresponding period.
* ... is a means to control the public. The actual form of government varies, but it is usually somewhat sinister and oppressive (Dystopia, duh?).
* ... provides some kind of medium for global or at least wide-ranging communication that is driven by research and/or business, piggybacked by military/political needs.
* ... is a strategic resource. In our timeline, this started in the 19th century with railroads, the telegraph, and the machine gun; in later settings wars are lost and won in cyberspace, before the army even leaves its barracks. Speaking of the army, while most of the soldiers are using relatively crude weaponry, there will often be an organization whose units pack state-of-the-art weapons and equipment for black-ops work.
* ... can make people stronger, faster, more perceptive, etc — for instance through body modifications/prosthetics. The science of medicine is typically quite sophisticated.
* ... can create Artificial Humans, Clockwork Creatures, or Ridiculously Human Robots.
* ... is developed with little regard for harmful consequences to society or nature.
If there is magic, it may...
* ... be simply another branch of science that provides Magitech, or
* ... be Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane, or
* ... have to do with powers and beings beyond human experience.
In particular, it does not involve divine miracles, and will not depend on faith. Nor does it require a Deal With The Devil. Magic users might suffer deleterious sideeffects.
----------------------------
Examples
A Punk Punk variant either exchanges the basic technology for that of another historical period or mixes in another genre.
By period
* Stone Punk: (Stone Age) Bamboo Technology based Punk. The Flintstones plays this for laughs, and is probly the most famous version.
* Sandal Punk: (Bronze and Iron Age) Ancient Astronauts (or Atlantis) impact the dawning classical civilization.
* Clock Punk: (Renaissance/Baroque) Leonardo da Vinci-style clockwork mechanica and gunpowder. Gormenghast, some of the Discworld novels. Assassin's Creed II plays it literally by having Da Vinci himself build some Clockpunk machines.
* Steam Punk: (Victorian Era) Steam-powered machinery in the vein of H.G. Wells and Jules Verne. This setting is often more romantic, heroic, and optimistic than other Punk Punk settings, but some works in this genre are every bit as cynical as the darkest Cyber Punk.
* Diesel Punk: (1920s - 1940s) Internal combustion engines and electricity. A fairly rare setting (well, compared to Steam, Atom, Cyber, and Bio); until the release of BioShock (which blends Diesel with Bio Punk) the most famous example was probably 2004's Sky Captain And The World Of Tomorrow.
* Atom Punk, aka Raygun Gothic : (1940s - 1950s) The world of pulp sci-fi where everything from inter-galactic space ships to pens is atomic powered. Fallout series is a great example, running on Science!
* Cyber Punk: (1980s - 1990s) The original Punk Punk setting, see the first paragraphs on this page. It used to be a futuristic genre, but Society Marches On.
* Post Cyber Punk: (Twenty Minutes into the Future) a much less dystopian successor to Cyber Punk. It is now extremely popular to combine this with The Great Politics Mess Up or The War On Terror.
* Bio Punk: (Twenty Minutes into the Future) An alternative to Cyber Punk with genetic engineering instead of computing. Gattaca might be the most recognizable example of Bio Punk, although The Island Of Doctor Moreau is a notable precursor.
By genre:
* The Apunkalypse: Punk meets After The End, as disaster reduces civilization to tribes of marauding scavengers.
* Cattle Punk: (The Western/Space Western) A typical John Ford film setting, only with things like robots, super-weapons, and wacky gadgets tossed in.
* Desert Punk: Punk + survival in a super-harsh environment. The desert may be Desert Planet or Burned-out Earth.
* Dungeon Punk: (Medieval European Fantasy) A heavily magical world where spells and enchanted artifacts take the place of modern technology.
* Fantastic Noir: (Urban—usually) a mixture of the noir detective story with the more colorful aspects of fantasy and science fiction.
* Gothic Punk: (Urban Fantasy) The punks are also goths. The world is secretly controlled by various supernatural creatures to whom humans are merely pawns.
* Ocean Punk: (Pirate) Punk in a mostly (or wholly) oceanic setting.
I amuse myself.
The Sprawl Trilogy and Thoughts Thereof (or What Ever Happened to Cyberpunk?)
19/04/2011 10:50:26 PM
- 2445 Views
Why I prefer cyberpunk in near future settings to (most) of the steampunk sub-genre.
19/04/2011 10:55:57 PM
- 1321 Views
The difference is that steampunk, by and large, is very aware of its implausibility.
20/04/2011 01:32:57 AM
- 885 Views
You keep giving steampunk backhanded compliments like that and you'll start to confuse me.
20/04/2011 02:12:53 AM
- 951 Views
Being entertaining is not a backhanded compliment.
20/04/2011 02:34:15 AM
- 1017 Views
It is when asserting something is better than a source containing more than entertainment.
20/04/2011 03:26:50 AM
- 1100 Views
...didn't you wear a top hat to your wedding? *NM*
20/04/2011 04:04:42 AM
- 458 Views
IIRC I wore morning dress, the CURRENT standard here.
20/04/2011 05:08:26 AM
- 958 Views
Top hats in morning dress have gone the way of the ascot (you didn't wear an ascot, did you?).
20/04/2011 05:41:54 AM
- 894 Views
Well, my wife, mother-in-law and the woman at the haberdashery all disagree.
20/04/2011 07:05:09 AM
- 983 Views
the ability to wear a costume at a convention is hardly a ringing endorsement of a genre
22/04/2011 01:49:40 AM
- 1049 Views
Your impression is close to being my comments verbatim.
22/04/2011 02:50:18 AM
- 1018 Views
I tried to avoid that word, but I'll leave comparisons there and discuss pure cyberpunk henceforth.
22/04/2011 03:58:29 PM
- 1039 Views
You keep coming back to this argument, and it keeps being a stupid one.
22/04/2011 10:33:14 PM
- 955 Views
I also can't help noting how this whole argument mirrors Count Zero.
24/04/2011 05:35:01 AM
- 1313 Views
I think it's just a matter of two separate genres that share very similar names and perhaps origins.
20/04/2011 01:32:50 AM
- 1039 Views
It's hard to argue that the genres are separate, but I did try to avoid suggesting a competition.
20/04/2011 03:08:49 AM
- 1069 Views
Ok, what are you trying to argue for and/or explore in this thread? There are three options:
20/04/2011 04:22:52 AM
- 955 Views
It is under-appreciated critically, largely due to relative unpopularity.
20/04/2011 06:35:27 AM
- 1142 Views
"Victorian Postmodernism" is viable because Postmodernism can appropriate other periods and styles.
21/04/2011 01:13:45 AM
- 992 Views
But can other periods and styles appropriate postmodernism?
21/04/2011 07:38:29 PM
- 1046 Views
I don't think it's a two-way street in that manner. It's PoMo appropriating Victorian not vice versa
21/04/2011 11:40:29 PM
- 1042 Views
It's only superficially postmodern though, else there'd be no wistfulness for Victorian styles.
22/04/2011 03:17:38 PM
- 1066 Views
IMO, cyberpunk has become somewhat dated.
20/04/2011 04:46:55 AM
- 1118 Views
Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
20/04/2011 07:01:50 AM
- 975 Views
Re: Actually, I can live with that, though terms like "dated" invite trouble.
22/04/2011 04:12:20 AM
- 1043 Views
so...is bladerunner cyberpunk
20/04/2011 09:48:15 PM
- 825 Views
It's usually seen as the archetypal cyberpunk film, yeah.
21/04/2011 10:50:44 AM
- 1163 Views
so cyber is the time and punk is the attitude?
21/04/2011 12:57:01 PM
- 947 Views
I don't think the portmanteau is that precisely defined.
21/04/2011 08:31:34 PM
- 1071 Views
I am amazed that no one has referenced this TVTropes page yet...
23/04/2011 07:45:14 PM
- 1312 Views
Playing with fire; I should've known TVTropes would exhaustively cover the derivatives.
24/04/2011 03:11:56 AM
- 1255 Views
It's always hard to pigeonhole things, especially as they become more specific
24/04/2011 06:27:28 PM
- 914 Views
The "dated" idea is interesting.
23/04/2011 08:08:26 PM
- 1000 Views
PS the Takeshi Kovacs books are great, and you should all go read them *NM*
23/04/2011 08:09:54 PM
- 429 Views
I think it underestimates cyberpunk, and overestimates (present) reality (yes, spoilers now).
24/04/2011 02:24:01 AM
- 997 Views