Aberforth and Dumbledore, Neville, Ginny, Luna, McGonagall, Harry, Percy, Fleur and the twins
Camilla Send a noteboard - 16/12/2010 11:52:46 PM
Aberforth and Dumbledore: I like him. He is grumbly and bitter, but lovely and surprisingly competent. His comment that "brains like that, you could be a Death Eater, son" gives him +1,000 points. It is clear that he has issues, however, although that is perhaps not surprising. Again, I do not think what is being said about Dumbledore can be taken at face value. It is the opinion of an anything but objective character, who clearly does not understand the concept of a cause as a valid motivation for action. I can see how that would develop, as he saw his brother seduced by the idea of the Greater Good, and then his sister died.
But the Dumbledore we see in the books is not blindly going for Greater Good -- as seen, for example, in his teaching manners to Death Eaters as he is about to be killed, or in his urging Harry and Hermione to save Sirius. While there is still the attempt to orchestrate a movement and create a successful tactic to defeat what is wrong, that is very different from the Greater Good dreams of his youth. He is no longer trying to control others for their betterment. It has moved from a totalitarian ideal to one which attempts to do right in the particulars, the details and in everyday life, but which as part of that will stand up and work with what means are available against an evil attempt to instate that control which he has rejected.
So, to Aberforth's question, "You don't think I understood my own brother", I think I'll answer a polite, but firm, "no". To be fair, Aberforth cannot know the pivotal part of Harry in defeating Voldemort, and so his assumption makes sense.
I really like his description of the young Dumbledore, however. It makes Albus sound like Percy (only competent). It would seem that Dumbledore had a massive personality shift, or at least gained a new perspective from his sister's death. It seems to me that much of what he had written to Grindewald was in response to the torture of Ariana, and it only makes sense to me as an attempt to make sure that that does not happen again. But I do not think you could argue that the Dumbledore we have met would ever ignore the smaller and powerless in favour of the grand plan again. Not surprisingly.
But the speech says as much about Aberforth. His insistence that he was closer to Ariana than Albus, it is the voice of a younger brother who lives in the shadow of his older. He reminds me a little of Ron, only bitter instead of insecure. It has the anger of Ron's attitude to Percy, but because Percy is not someone generally admired, that lacks an important dimension, I think.
Yes. That may have gotten a little defensive, but there it is.
Neville: I like battle-scarred Neville. He wears them with pride, and I love how he explains what he did to deserve them. I also think it is quite funny that he has taken one of Harry's bad traits (his inability to control his temper) and modelled himself on it. He is the centre of the resistance. And I love his Gran now.
I also like the general insistence that they will help. And Neville is right, all those in the room have proven themselves by now. In part by having entered at all, as Neville's sensible requirement that no one affiliated with the Carrows can enter.
Ginny: I like her insistence that Luna, not Cho, show Harry the Ravenclaw common room. I also sympathise with her wish not to be sent away from the final showdown. Not least because her whole family, as well as her boyfriend, are all likely to die any minute.
Luna: I like her reaction to the Ravenclaw first-years standing around the stunned body of Alecto: "Oh, look. They're pleased!"
McGonagall: So cool. And for some reason her using the Imperius Curse validates Harry's using it in my mind. And I love how she does it. After all, it is not a matter of making them do something that breakes with their integrity -- she just makes him lie down without a fuss.
I also like her reaction to Harry's assurance that he is acting on Dumbledore's orders. And her comment that "We teachers are rather good at magic, you know". I also like her altercation with Snape, and how she raises the statues to defend the school.
Harry: I can't believe he used the Cruciatus curse. This is rather shocking. Or it would be if his reasons were not so endearing.
Snape: Is he as good a legilimens as an occlumens? Do the two go together? He used a spell when he broke into Harry's mind in book 5, but I could swear he was trying to read McGonagall's mind just before she attacked.
Percy: about bloody time. I suppose he is right that he could not easily have broken rank as soon as Voldemort took over, but… What am I saying? Of course he could. He could have gone to the Burrow and asked to be let in.
Fleur: I like her attempt to break the tension.
Lupin: I like how he goes along with it. With a picture.
Fred and George: One of our last chances to take stock of the differences between the two. I am not sure I can see them. Fred is the one to reach out after a jab. George mocks him, but in a friendly way. If there is a difference it is subtle.
But the Dumbledore we see in the books is not blindly going for Greater Good -- as seen, for example, in his teaching manners to Death Eaters as he is about to be killed, or in his urging Harry and Hermione to save Sirius. While there is still the attempt to orchestrate a movement and create a successful tactic to defeat what is wrong, that is very different from the Greater Good dreams of his youth. He is no longer trying to control others for their betterment. It has moved from a totalitarian ideal to one which attempts to do right in the particulars, the details and in everyday life, but which as part of that will stand up and work with what means are available against an evil attempt to instate that control which he has rejected.
So, to Aberforth's question, "You don't think I understood my own brother", I think I'll answer a polite, but firm, "no". To be fair, Aberforth cannot know the pivotal part of Harry in defeating Voldemort, and so his assumption makes sense.
I really like his description of the young Dumbledore, however. It makes Albus sound like Percy (only competent). It would seem that Dumbledore had a massive personality shift, or at least gained a new perspective from his sister's death. It seems to me that much of what he had written to Grindewald was in response to the torture of Ariana, and it only makes sense to me as an attempt to make sure that that does not happen again. But I do not think you could argue that the Dumbledore we have met would ever ignore the smaller and powerless in favour of the grand plan again. Not surprisingly.
But the speech says as much about Aberforth. His insistence that he was closer to Ariana than Albus, it is the voice of a younger brother who lives in the shadow of his older. He reminds me a little of Ron, only bitter instead of insecure. It has the anger of Ron's attitude to Percy, but because Percy is not someone generally admired, that lacks an important dimension, I think.
Yes. That may have gotten a little defensive, but there it is.
Neville: I like battle-scarred Neville. He wears them with pride, and I love how he explains what he did to deserve them. I also think it is quite funny that he has taken one of Harry's bad traits (his inability to control his temper) and modelled himself on it. He is the centre of the resistance. And I love his Gran now.
I also like the general insistence that they will help. And Neville is right, all those in the room have proven themselves by now. In part by having entered at all, as Neville's sensible requirement that no one affiliated with the Carrows can enter.
Ginny: I like her insistence that Luna, not Cho, show Harry the Ravenclaw common room. I also sympathise with her wish not to be sent away from the final showdown. Not least because her whole family, as well as her boyfriend, are all likely to die any minute.
Luna: I like her reaction to the Ravenclaw first-years standing around the stunned body of Alecto: "Oh, look. They're pleased!"
McGonagall: So cool. And for some reason her using the Imperius Curse validates Harry's using it in my mind. And I love how she does it. After all, it is not a matter of making them do something that breakes with their integrity -- she just makes him lie down without a fuss.
I also like her reaction to Harry's assurance that he is acting on Dumbledore's orders. And her comment that "We teachers are rather good at magic, you know". I also like her altercation with Snape, and how she raises the statues to defend the school.
Harry: I can't believe he used the Cruciatus curse. This is rather shocking. Or it would be if his reasons were not so endearing.
Snape: Is he as good a legilimens as an occlumens? Do the two go together? He used a spell when he broke into Harry's mind in book 5, but I could swear he was trying to read McGonagall's mind just before she attacked.
Percy: about bloody time. I suppose he is right that he could not easily have broken rank as soon as Voldemort took over, but… What am I saying? Of course he could. He could have gone to the Burrow and asked to be let in.
Fleur: I like her attempt to break the tension.
Lupin: I like how he goes along with it. With a picture.
Fred and George: One of our last chances to take stock of the differences between the two. I am not sure I can see them. Fred is the one to reach out after a jab. George mocks him, but in a friendly way. If there is a difference it is subtle.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
structured procrastinator
The Great Harry Potter Re-read: Book 7 - The Deathly Hallows
24/11/2010 07:47:44 PM
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Suggestions - tell us what we could do better for this final discussion.
24/11/2010 07:48:22 PM
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The series as a whole: overall thoughts about the Harry Potter universe and all it contains
24/11/2010 07:49:21 PM
- 1804 Views
Overall thoughts for The Deathly Hallows
24/11/2010 07:50:12 PM
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This might be the only book other than the first where I actually like Harry.
30/11/2010 03:13:25 PM
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Argh, I keep mixing everything up with the movie!
04/12/2010 03:45:24 PM
- 1905 Views
Re: Argh, I keep mixing everything up with the movie!
04/12/2010 10:33:03 PM
- 1929 Views
Going all the way back to the beginning in a number of ways, all of them so far excellent.
07/12/2010 10:19:33 PM
- 1951 Views
Having finished it again... it's good, at times great, but not the best book in the series, imho.
26/12/2010 08:19:47 PM
- 2026 Views
Chapters 1-3: The Dark Lord Ascending, In Memorian, The Dursleys Departing.
24/11/2010 07:51:29 PM
- 1872 Views
Characters: Voldemort, the Death Eaters, Harry, Dodge, Dumbledore, Skeeter & the Dursleys
24/11/2010 07:52:55 PM
- 1900 Views
Snape, Draco, Lucius, Narcissa, Bellatrix, Harry, Ms Burbage, Dumbledore, and the Dursleys.
24/11/2010 11:46:16 PM
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Draco, female Death Eaters, Dumbledore.
25/11/2010 04:44:36 PM
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Re: Draco, female Death Eaters, Dumbledore.
25/11/2010 04:53:25 PM
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As Katie said, the husband is still around.
26/11/2010 10:56:30 AM
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Re: Charity Burbage
25/11/2010 06:47:43 PM
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Re: Charity Burbage
25/11/2010 06:48:52 PM
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Dudley
30/11/2010 03:16:25 PM
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Agreed, but she just went overboard too far early on for it to be credible now.
06/12/2010 08:44:48 PM
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Plotting, writing, early themes.
24/11/2010 07:53:33 PM
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Anything else? *NM*
24/11/2010 07:53:46 PM
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other stuff
24/11/2010 11:47:54 PM
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I've always thought Rowling went overboard with the Nazi links.
25/11/2010 04:26:58 PM
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Re: I've always thought Rowling went overboard with the Nazi links.
27/11/2010 01:20:44 AM
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Chapters 4-6: The Seven Potters, The Fallen Warrior, The Ghoul in Pyjamas *NM*
26/11/2010 07:27:53 PM
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Characters: Harry, the Order, Hedwig, Mr & Mrs Tonks, Voldemort, etc
26/11/2010 07:29:48 PM
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Harry, the twins, Mr and Mrs Tonks, Lupin, Mr and Mrs Weasley, Scrimgeour and Hermione
27/11/2010 11:56:17 AM
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Re: Harry, the twins, Mr and Mrs Tonks, Lupin, Mr and Mrs Weasley, Scrimgeour and Hermione
30/11/2010 02:52:12 PM
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The Plot. The Writing. The Other Technical Things.
26/11/2010 07:30:35 PM
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Re: The Plot. The Writing. The Other Technical Things.
27/11/2010 11:59:36 AM
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Yes, Dumbledore gives a very complex answer about the wand thing
01/12/2010 08:44:57 PM
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Any other thoughts? *NM*
26/11/2010 07:30:49 PM
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Chapters 7-9: The Will of Albus Dumbledore, The Wedding, A Place to Hide
29/11/2010 06:39:52 PM
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The characters: usual suspects, Scrimgeour, Doge, Krum, Luna, Xenophilius, etc.
29/11/2010 06:41:41 PM
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I just realized something about Krum.
06/12/2010 09:00:28 PM
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The action.
29/11/2010 06:42:10 PM
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Hermione and obliviate.
30/11/2010 02:23:51 PM
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Re: Hermione and obliviate.
30/11/2010 03:24:06 PM
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I think this was a Rowling mistake. It happens
01/12/2010 08:32:25 PM
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Agreed, though a rather blatant one that someone should have caught... *NM*
06/12/2010 08:18:58 PM
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Kreacher quoting Regulus raises an interesting point...
06/12/2010 08:33:02 PM
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Er, I posted this in the wrong place. That's what I get when I try to catch up.
Sorry. *NM*
06/12/2010 08:34:06 PM
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Please, sir, may I have some more? *NM*
29/11/2010 06:44:14 PM
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I love the use of Patronuses (Patroni?) as messengers.
30/11/2010 02:59:04 PM
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Chapters 10-12: Kreacher's Tale, The Bribe, Magic is Might
01/12/2010 11:41:40 PM
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Characters: more of the trio, Kreacher, Mundungus, RAB and Umbridge
01/12/2010 11:42:34 PM
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Hermione and Ron, Sirius, Regulus, Kreacher, Lupin, Harry, Scrimgeour
02/12/2010 09:11:21 AM
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Re: Hermione and Ron, Sirius, Regulus, Kreacher, Lupin, Harry, Scrimgeour
04/12/2010 10:55:34 PM
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Seconded. Righteous anger is more fun than whiny angst-anger. *NM*
06/12/2010 09:41:16 PM
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I'm not sure why we're supposed to be surprised about Scrimgeour.
06/12/2010 09:46:27 PM
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Two things about Mafalda Hopkirk.
06/12/2010 09:54:53 PM
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Weaving the plot, the writing, and thematic matters.
01/12/2010 11:43:25 PM
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The fidelius charm discussion, the invisibility cloak, the taboo, transfiguring food, and fear.
02/12/2010 09:14:21 AM
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Re: The fidelius charm discussion, the invisibility cloak, the taboo, transfiguring food, and fear.
02/12/2010 02:12:29 PM
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Re: The fidelius charm discussion, the invisibility cloak, the taboo, transfiguring food, and fear.
02/12/2010 02:35:06 PM
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Re: The fidelius charm discussion, the invisibility cloak, the taboo, transfiguring food, and fear.
02/12/2010 04:16:14 PM
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And? And? And? *NM*
01/12/2010 11:43:46 PM
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Did we have a discussion for a previous book about how many wizarding schools there are?
04/12/2010 10:21:42 PM
- 1926 Views
Re: Did we have a discussion for a previous book about how many wizarding schools there are?
04/12/2010 10:32:17 PM
- 1824 Views
Chapters 13-15: The Muggle-Born Registration Commission, The Thief, The Goblin's Revenge *NM*
04/12/2010 11:01:25 AM
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Characters: Ministry members, the trio, Ted, Dean, Dirk, Goblins, Phineas Nigellus
04/12/2010 11:07:57 AM
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Umbridge, Mr Weasley, Percy, Phineas Nigellus, Ron and the second trio
04/12/2010 09:59:45 PM
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Re: Umbridge, Mr Weasley, Percy, Phineas Nigellus, Ron and the second trio
06/12/2010 10:41:08 PM
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Re: Umbridge, Mr Weasley, Percy, Phineas Nigellus, Ron and the second trio
06/12/2010 10:45:17 PM
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Plotting, writing, theming.
04/12/2010 11:08:47 AM
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Apparating and the fidelius charm, some good plotting and the food problem.
04/12/2010 10:01:16 PM
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Anything else? *NM*
04/12/2010 11:10:52 AM
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It may be a stretch, but with all the Nazi references, any WW2 reference is gonna catch my eye.
06/12/2010 10:09:04 PM
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Re: It may be a stretch, but with all the Nazi references, any WW2 reference is gonna catch my eye.
06/12/2010 10:17:42 PM
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Chapters 16-18: Godric's Hollow, Bathilda's Secret, The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore
06/12/2010 09:57:00 PM
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Characters: Harry, Hermione, Bathilda, Dumbledore and others
06/12/2010 09:57:52 PM
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Dumbledore, Hermione and Harry, Voldemort and Rita Skeeter.
06/12/2010 10:02:13 PM
- 1927 Views
Re: Dumbledore, Hermione and Harry, Voldemort and Rita Skeeter.
06/12/2010 10:14:26 PM
- 2014 Views
Re: Dumbledore, Hermione and Harry, Voldemort and Rita Skeeter.
06/12/2010 10:18:15 PM
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Re: Dumbledore, Hermione and Harry, Voldemort and Rita Skeeter.
06/12/2010 10:34:15 PM
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Re: Dumbledore, Hermione and Harry, Voldemort and Rita Skeeter.
06/12/2010 10:36:18 PM
- 1817 Views
Re: Dumbledore, Hermione and Harry, Voldemort and Rita Skeeter.
06/12/2010 10:39:58 PM
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Re: Dumbledore, Hermione and Harry, Voldemort and Rita Skeeter.
06/12/2010 10:42:27 PM
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I was interpreting it as sheer sexism, but you might be right.
07/12/2010 08:47:11 PM
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Re: I was interpreting it as sheer sexism, but you might be right.
07/12/2010 08:55:54 PM
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Lights! Camera! Action!
06/12/2010 09:59:52 PM
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But wait! There's more!
06/12/2010 10:00:34 PM
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Chapters 19-21: The Silver Doe, Xenophilius Lovegood, The Tale of the Three Brothers
08/12/2010 08:47:04 PM
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Characters: Harry, Hermione, Ron, Lovegood ... and not many more. *NM*
08/12/2010 08:49:28 PM
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Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
09/12/2010 12:01:57 AM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
09/12/2010 03:04:11 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
09/12/2010 08:03:05 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
09/12/2010 11:48:08 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
10/12/2010 08:44:01 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
10/12/2010 09:00:44 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
10/12/2010 09:16:48 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
10/12/2010 09:19:38 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
19/12/2010 06:58:04 PM
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Re: Snape, Harry, Ron, Hermione, Xenophilius, Luna and Dumbledore.
20/12/2010 09:36:17 AM
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What was that again about Hermione not being so good at thinking on her feet?
09/12/2010 07:52:23 PM
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Action, plot, writing, theme: the Deathly Hallows explained at last.
08/12/2010 08:50:53 PM
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Re: Action, plot, writing, theme: the Deathly Hallows explained at last.
09/12/2010 12:04:37 AM
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Re: Action, plot, writing, theme: the Deathly Hallows explained at last.
09/12/2010 03:25:53 PM
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I don't think it works that way. They aren't "used up".
09/12/2010 06:52:29 PM
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up up down down left right left right b a select start. look at me I have 99 horcruxes!
10/12/2010 04:19:56 AM
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They're not so annoying yet, now.
09/12/2010 06:56:46 PM
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Re: They're not so annoying yet, now.
09/12/2010 11:52:02 PM
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Plus, it totally cheapens ability and skill if you have some "magic (magic) wand".
10/12/2010 08:56:28 PM
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Re: Plus, it totally cheapens ability and skill if you have some "magic (magic) wand".
10/12/2010 08:59:41 PM
- 1939 Views

Chapters 22-24: The Deathly Hallows, Malfoy Manor, The Wandmaker.
10/12/2010 09:11:32 PM
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Characters: The Trio, the Malfoys, Dobby, a number of others. *NM*
10/12/2010 09:12:30 PM
- 946 Views
Hermione, Harry, Lupin, Greyback, Draco, Lucius, Bellatrix, Dobby, Dumbledore
10/12/2010 11:23:09 PM
- 2009 Views
Re: Hermione, Harry, Lupin, Greyback, Draco, Lucius, Bellatrix, Dobby, Dumbledore
13/12/2010 08:47:27 PM
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Re: Hermione, Harry, Lupin, Greyback, Draco, Lucius, Bellatrix, Dobby, Dumbledore
13/12/2010 09:26:58 PM
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On a side note about wands
14/12/2010 06:05:13 PM
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Yes, I've caught myself immaturely sniggering on occasion, too.
14/12/2010 08:59:26 PM
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Re: Yes, I've caught myself immaturely sniggering on occasion, too.
14/12/2010 09:04:43 PM
- 1935 Views

Plot, writing, themes. *NM*
10/12/2010 09:13:37 PM
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An epiphany, Gollum, wands, the fidelius charm, grief, love and a strange blurring
10/12/2010 11:24:05 PM
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Re: An epiphany, Gollum, wands, the fidelius charm, grief, love and a strange blurring
20/12/2010 01:00:38 PM
- 1908 Views
Re: An epiphany, Gollum, wands, the fidelius charm, grief, love and a strange blurring
20/12/2010 07:32:48 PM
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Chapters 25-27: Shell Cottage, Gringotts, The Final Hiding Place
13/12/2010 10:03:15 PM
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Characters *NM*
13/12/2010 10:03:29 PM
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Harry, Fleur, Ron, Griphook, Lupin, the dragon, Bellatrix and Voldemort.
14/12/2010 05:16:51 PM
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Re: Harry, Fleur, Ron, Griphook, Lupin, the dragon, Bellatrix and Voldemort.
14/12/2010 10:04:09 PM
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Re: Harry, Fleur, Ron, Griphook, Lupin, the dragon, Bellatrix and Voldemort.
14/12/2010 10:19:04 PM
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Re: Harry, Fleur, Ron, Griphook, Lupin, the dragon, Bellatrix and Voldemort.
14/12/2010 10:37:00 PM
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Re: Harry, Fleur, Ron, Griphook, Lupin, the dragon, Bellatrix and Voldemort.
14/12/2010 10:45:36 PM
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Re: Harry, Fleur, Ron, Griphook, Lupin, the dragon, Bellatrix and Voldemort.
20/12/2010 03:33:49 PM
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Re: Harry, Fleur, Ron, Griphook, Lupin, the dragon, Bellatrix and Voldemort.
20/12/2010 07:35:51 PM
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Plot, action, etc. *NM*
13/12/2010 10:04:02 PM
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red herring, fidelius charm information and full circle.
14/12/2010 05:17:11 PM
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Other things. *NM*
13/12/2010 10:04:23 PM
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Film stuff
14/12/2010 05:17:18 PM
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Excellent point.
14/12/2010 10:05:01 PM
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Re: Excellent point.
14/12/2010 10:09:53 PM
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Sometimes Rowling's parallels are far too simplistic and unsophisticated.
20/12/2010 03:39:50 PM
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Chapters 28-30: The Missing Mirror, The Lost Diadem, The Sacking of Severus Snape *NM*
16/12/2010 01:07:20 PM
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Characters *NM*
16/12/2010 01:07:31 PM
- 874 Views
Aberforth and Dumbledore, Neville, Ginny, Luna, McGonagall, Harry, Percy, Fleur and the twins
16/12/2010 11:52:46 PM
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Re: Aberforth and Dumbledore, Neville, Ginny, Luna, McGonagall, Harry, Percy, Fleur and the twins
20/12/2010 05:16:13 PM
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Re: Aberforth and Dumbledore, Neville, Ginny, Luna, McGonagall, Harry, Percy, Fleur and the twins
20/12/2010 11:02:45 PM
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Re: Aberforth and Dumbledore, Neville, Ginny, Luna, McGonagall, Harry, Percy, Fleur and the twins
26/12/2010 08:43:03 PM
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Writing, action, plot, theme, yadda yadda yadda. *NM*
16/12/2010 01:08:04 PM
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red herrings, solutions, evil Hogwarts and the forces of good
16/12/2010 11:53:56 PM
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Re: red herrings, solutions, evil Hogwarts and the forces of good
20/12/2010 05:38:46 PM
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Re: red herrings, solutions, evil Hogwarts and the forces of good
20/12/2010 11:06:01 PM
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Other things. *NM*
16/12/2010 01:08:25 PM
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Chapters 31-33: The Battle for Hogwarts, The Elder Wand, The Prince's Tale
19/12/2010 07:56:39 PM
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Characters: far too many to mention.
19/12/2010 07:58:41 PM
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Too many to mention, indeed.
20/12/2010 09:30:54 AM
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The action, and plot advancement and completion.
19/12/2010 08:00:09 PM
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memories, cinematic moments and parallels.
20/12/2010 09:32:27 AM
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Chapters 34-36: The Forest Again, King's Cross, The Flaw in the Plan
20/12/2010 07:31:27 PM
- 1698 Views
Characters: Voldemort, Harry, Dumbledore, Ron, Hermione, et al.
20/12/2010 07:32:15 PM
- 1729 Views
Harry, Dumbledore, Neville, the Malfoys, Molly and Voldemort
20/12/2010 11:28:19 PM
- 1861 Views
Tying up the plot.
20/12/2010 07:33:00 PM
- 1713 Views
Narnia, blood, revenge of the downtrodden, sacrifice, plans and souls
20/12/2010 11:29:44 PM
- 1838 Views
Epilogue: the future.
20/12/2010 07:35:06 PM
- 1837 Views