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That's a fair point, I guess... Legolas Send a noteboard - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM
I don't remember much of it (my fatal flaw in these conversations :P) but the jist was that, yes, these other women are all "Strong" in their relationships...

but BEFORE they were strong, they were weak (physically or otherwise) until they were "Saved" by a male vampire. So the basic idea was that these women were only portrayed as strong after they'd been saved by their men and given their place...by men.

But considering that these "Savings" other than Bella's took place off-screen and get little attention, I don't think it's a particularly strong point.
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Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy Larry - 28/07/2010 10:02:39 PM 1648 Views
Nonsense, at least in part Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:19:19 PM 1214 Views
I know there is a polite difference of opinion here Larry - 28/07/2010 10:40:42 PM 1024 Views
So we should judge the Iliad against modren fantasy novels? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 12:04:32 PM 1052 Views
i agree, and furthermore... LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:46:07 PM 1126 Views
Re: I know there is a polite difference of opinion here dacole - 29/07/2010 08:44:24 PM 1057 Views
Mno Camilla - 30/07/2010 09:07:18 AM 1135 Views
Have to agree. Seriana Sedai - 28/07/2010 11:38:37 PM 1118 Views
It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. Tim - 29/07/2010 09:44:53 AM 941 Views
*cough* Twilight *cough* Ghavrel - 29/07/2010 10:15:13 AM 977 Views
I was gonna mention that one too. Legolas - 29/07/2010 10:35:17 AM 1052 Views
Mmm. I read an interesting article actually... LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:24:04 PM 873 Views
That's a fair point, I guess... Legolas - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM 1085 Views
mmm, except it's relevant to Bella too. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:43:03 PM 955 Views
That's my point, it's pretty much only relevant to Bella - only there is it shown prominently. *NM* Legolas - 29/07/2010 10:59:54 PM 479 Views
Of course, since she's the main character, it matters rather a lot, yes? *NM* Ghavrel - 30/07/2010 09:39:07 AM 469 Views
It's hardly tacit. I'm glad I've never read the things. Ghavrel - 30/07/2010 09:38:33 AM 1070 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 30/07/2010 10:03:07 AM 1072 Views
Also: the writing is crap. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 01:04:12 PM 1016 Views
but plenty of us hate it after reading *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:24:35 PM 454 Views
How much do you have to read to form an opinion? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 12:23:28 PM 1030 Views
To the end Camilla - 29/07/2010 12:59:25 PM 902 Views
my reading time is too scarce to think that way random thoughts - 29/07/2010 01:21:26 PM 1106 Views
I agree, but HP is a good example of something you should keep reading LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:27:20 PM 1079 Views
and I will random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:13:03 PM 808 Views
that's fair enough then LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:43:57 PM 876 Views
so I hear random thoughts - 29/07/2010 11:13:09 PM 837 Views
Re: To the end dacole - 29/07/2010 08:49:06 PM 948 Views
Re: To the end Camilla - 29/07/2010 10:34:44 PM 863 Views
Re: How much do you have to read to form an opinion? Legolas - 29/07/2010 01:49:21 PM 1052 Views
The books mature as Harry does. You should really give it another shot *NM* Dark Knight - 29/07/2010 03:00:37 PM 540 Views
He doesn't want to, so why should he? It's not like you or he is losing anything now Lordling - 29/07/2010 06:15:58 PM 894 Views
It is a case of the "someone is wrong on the internet" thing, only much older Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:27:07 PM 853 Views
well you have not failed completely random thoughts - 29/07/2010 06:50:15 PM 849 Views
Re: well you have not failed completely Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 897 Views
one quick question random thoughts - 29/07/2010 07:38:00 PM 938 Views
Re: one quick question Camilla - 29/07/2010 07:42:27 PM 971 Views
well I am not a big enough hypocrite to look down on verbosity random thoughts - 29/07/2010 08:30:56 PM 883 Views
I have a new essay I want you to read Larry - 29/07/2010 07:44:40 PM 999 Views
Re: I have a new essay I want you to read Camilla - 29/07/2010 10:42:05 PM 965 Views
how many books do I have to read to get to the grown up books? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 06:42:37 PM 878 Views
Book 3 is the beginning of the adult ones, imo. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 06:44:07 PM 972 Views
Agreed, although, Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:54:14 PM 943 Views
None of them are "geared towards grown ups" - it's still a YA series. Legolas - 29/07/2010 07:03:24 PM 866 Views
They're all "light reading" for adults, geared towards YA readers. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:29:01 PM 856 Views
Re: It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. dacole - 29/07/2010 08:45:58 PM 988 Views
it's not supposed to be on par with adult fantasy. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:49:16 PM 972 Views
I'd argue it's better than Jordan and others from a literary standpoint. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 927 Views
I have always thought Jordan had some interesting themes but they were often ignored... random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:27:12 PM 1071 Views
lol. it's hard to fail with such low preliminary standards *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:46:07 PM 474 Views
good points, i bow to your wisdom LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:45:29 PM 859 Views
Oh, agreed. Camilla - 30/07/2010 09:05:17 AM 996 Views
Incidentall Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:39:52 PM 961 Views
Ha! Larry - 28/07/2010 10:41:41 PM 1081 Views
Re: Ha! Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:45:38 PM 964 Views
Ah Larry - 28/07/2010 10:49:22 PM 1029 Views
I agree Tolkien should not be a sacred cow or put on a pedestal overmuch. Legolas - 28/07/2010 11:10:37 PM 1041 Views
I can see your points there Larry - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM 941 Views
I completely agree that there should be no sacred cows, and that applies to Tolkien. Tom - 28/07/2010 11:13:39 PM 954 Views
I grow weary of people refusing to view LotR in context. Ghavrel - 28/07/2010 11:14:07 PM 987 Views
all art forms have sacred cows random thoughts - 29/07/2010 01:38:26 AM 1058 Views
Yeah, it was the line about women waiting at home while their men went to war that made me laugh. Gher - 29/07/2010 06:44:34 PM 948 Views
women deserve black lung too!! LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:35:17 PM 843 Views
nah the smart ones do like my grandmother did random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:15:14 PM 915 Views
All Tolkien-haters are morons. fionwe1987 - 29/07/2010 03:30:27 AM 1207 Views
Disappointing. Werthead - 29/07/2010 04:41:34 AM 1010 Views
Re: Disappointing. Camilla - 29/07/2010 09:19:25 AM 942 Views
Probably in the sense... Jacob - 29/07/2010 02:57:47 PM 900 Views
Perhaps more of 'a complication' to good discussion. Werthead - 29/07/2010 08:28:59 PM 853 Views
agreed. *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:32:36 PM 461 Views
I think you are ignoring the key fact that the Silmarillion was never published by Tolkien. Tom - 30/07/2010 01:48:14 PM 1254 Views
The Silmarillion was actually one of Tolkien's first works lyringlas - 30/07/2010 06:12:31 PM 1333 Views
No it wasn't. Tom - 30/07/2010 06:37:19 PM 981 Views
Re: Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy dacole - 29/07/2010 08:42:04 PM 1001 Views
I find the Tolkien lovers to be obnoxious in their never ending masturbatory praise of his works. everynametaken - 30/07/2010 06:09:42 AM 1012 Views
This. *NM* Dan - 30/07/2010 07:43:24 PM 1094 Views
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