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Re: Good points DomA Send a noteboard - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM
I had wondered at some of your earlier comments about the first book. May be due to the different appendices/forewords?


No, I think some of my views may come from interviews, or my time on Dune forums ywaras ago. I was quite the fan years ago. As much as a WOT fan at some point, you might say. I grew up with Dune and the other books and novellas (that change my point-of-view of the books as well, a great deal. Most of Herbert's books but Dune didn't remain in print long, and most of the American fans have not read them. The novellas are long gone in English - I'm not even sure they ever were collected as books (I checked. They were, they're just long gone in print). Not so in French - all of Frank's books and novellas are still available and the translations are good. Let's just say that reading everything gives another view of Frank's thoughts (it's obvious from his other books that he wasn't a mysogyn in the least, for instance), as he returned many times to the same themes and ideas in his other books, though often he mixed different ones or otherwise changed the cocktail of themes.). He always hated formulaic answers - a great deal of his thinking is open-ended, leaving the reader take over.

I see where you're coming from with your vision of the books changing with time and experience. At 14 I saw Dune as a LOTR in outer space. As a young adult though, Frank's ideas and opinions played a part in shaping my worldview. He certainly helped me develop/deepen my fairly critical opinions on religion, and politics. His negative views on the Hero worship in religion, history and myth I only really returned to in my readings after I had read Joseph Campbell and some of Jung (which inspired Herbert a lot - it's where the Other Memory arose from, notably). It's only then I realised how negatively Herbert considered Heroes, how Dune wasn't an heroic epic but a demonstration of how Heroes and "gods" are crafted, and how dangerous they can be.

The stuff about his dislike of catholicism I mentionned comes from his biography, I think. Frank detested being told how to think, and he saw the catholic church as a huge machine designed to do ejust that. Nuns crept him out from more personal experience - he's hated them since his childhood and when he crafted the Bene Gesserit he modelled it on them.


IRRC, only three or maybe four of his books have either a foreword or afterword and only two are by Herbert instead of by Guy Abadia, his French publisher and friend. As far as I remember, Frank's afterword in the sixth book is the only one that's there in the original as well, though Abadia's second afterword speaking of Herbert's death and the writing of Chapterhouse isn't. I would have to dig the books out to be sure. I have not re read them in French in over 25 years and as I won't re read them in translation ever, they're in storage. Or perhaps I gave them away to friends. I don't remember. The only French books I have on the shelves are those not yet reprinted in English (in the last years many have been), like the Jesus Incident/The Lazarus Effect and the Ascension Factor that I love just as much as Dune, in some ways more and in some ways less. They were written in parallel to the Dune books (the last four)and deal with many of the same themes, with additional ingredients thrown in (environmental issues and how environment shape people (literally as well as psychologically), religion and politics is more deeply explored in that series. Dune skims the surface a bit in comparison. In Dune the machine-minds have been fought and defeated. In the other series, it begins with the sucessful attempt to create a conscious AI and then goes downhill as the AI (a spaceship) turns against its creators and decides it is God. The stand-alone novel stops at that, the other three are a much later expansion co-written by Bill Ransom on what comes next after Ship stopped above an extremely unhospitable planet and ordered its worshippers to settle it and multiply. It explores issues of differences and racism as people mutate, and symbiotic as well as predator-prey relationships. Pandora becomes the antithesis of Arrakis at some point, after an eco-disaster turned it into a river world. Some of these themes resurfaced in Dune 7, alas in a pedestrian fashion but KJA and Herbert junior destroyed it as a novel certainly but it's still interesting to dig up the ideas of Frank in there. Perhaps because I know well his other books and the last one written in solo by Ransom was in preparation while Frank was outlining Dune 7, I tend to quite disagree with those who thought Dune 7 was very un-Herbert like and Anderson made it all up. In truth, it explores stuff within the Dune setting that Frank was also exploring in the Pandora setting from another angle at the same time, which is quite typical of the way he worked on his parallel projects all his career).

Frank Herbert is one of those Americans who enjoyed more early popularity in France than in the USA. The French SF circles (which were quite small - think of enthusiasts in the vein of the Doherty of the early years, except they were writers in their own right too) almost worshipped Herbert. And his wife. They were the first ones to recognize Bev's great indirect input in Frank's novels, as his springboard for his ideas. Abadia invested great efforts in having Herbert's books translated, especially the "tougher ones" like the Whipping Star, which was quite a challenge (the central character is a being that doesn't think or communicate in human terms at all and doesn't even exist in the same dimensions - it's a mystery novel, with the protagonist attempting to solve how to communicate with that "Fanny May" and learn why beings like her are disappearing.). Not that Herbert wasn't popular in the USA, but he was even more in France. I guess he appealed to their cartesian tendencies.


This message last edited by DomA on 22/04/2010 at 11:08:20 PM
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1933 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 1049 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1237 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1166 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1166 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1217 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 1022 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 1054 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 920 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 895 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 887 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 1019 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 951 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 930 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 967 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 916 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 948 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 1049 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 902 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 912 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 795 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 950 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 1024 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 924 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 926 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1403 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 458 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1112 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 1065 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1130 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1318 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series - 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM 1071 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1259 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 947 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1511 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1314 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1265 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1196 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 946 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 402 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 405 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1165 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 897 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 849 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 847 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 766 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 887 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 769 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 1000 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 969 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 945 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 853 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1114 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 839 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 798 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 1067 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 813 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 887 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 849 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1189 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 999 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 1036 Views

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