Active Users:1125 Time:22/11/2024 08:00:42 PM
So what? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 04/09/2009 11:30:28 PM
After all, how many people would forgive a friend who basically sent thugs to rape her, only stopping the scene when she had to beg for it, then had absolutely no regret whatsoever about it?

I have to point out that this is a Wise One teaching method. When Egwene was chastised by one of them during one of her unsanctioned meetings with Nynaeve and Elayne in "The Shadow Rising", she was told that "a harsh lesson is best". Each of the Wise Ones, if you recall, recalls scenes where another Wise One had to treat them extremely roughly in order to impart a subject lesson.


So what? Nynaeve is not Egwene's student. She has no authority, seniority or rank on her. Egwene agreed to play by the Wise Ones' rules in accepting their teaching, and promptly broke her word. Nynaeve, by contrast, refused to accept the authority of the Wise Ones, even though she knew she could get away with not keeping her word, despite Egwene mocking her to the Wise Ones. So any moralization about using Wise One methods is a crock, because, A. Egwene is not a Wise One, B. Nynaeve does not acknowledge the authority of Wise Ones, C. the Wise Ones are the keepers of a barbaric culture of savages, who sanction and encourage recreational homicide and armed robbery, and supported the Aiel War, a conflict with less moral justification than the Seanchan conquests, not to mention lying to their people for 3,000 years to set up the bleakness and civil war among the Aiel, D. Egwene has absolutely no authority over Nynaeve at all, and E. Nynaeve is actually out in the world trying to accomplish specific goals with a greater good behind them, not sitting on her butt under the protection of the Wise Ones and armies of Aiel. She does not have the luxury of taking it easy like Egwene - for Egwene it is all about learning new skills and tricks; for Nynaeve it is all about grasping at whatever straws she can because she needs every hair she can achieve with one of the Forsaken hunting her with a personal grude.

In fact, I find it odd that this scene is recalled by critics so vividly when they forget that Nynaeve and Elayne's lack of this lesson in being more careful is what got both of them into trouble twice: Once when Elayne was almost killed when she was hit on the head with a cudgel by a pick pocket and again when Moghedien was able to track them when they momentarily dropped their cover. This same lesson was imparted much more terribly when Nynaeve was too hasty in hunting the Forsaken, and nearly cost Birgitte her life/existence.


Nynaeve didn't cost Birgitte squat which, you may recall, is Birgitte's own view of the matter. And so what? Birgitte's life is a small price to pay for an advantage over the Forsaken. In any event, this has jack all to do with the matter at hand, and is particularly obnoxious suggesting that Nynaeve or Elayne need ANY lesson in caution from an idiot who commits drastic tactical blunders EVERY TIME she steps out from a circle of armed guards and powerful channelers. The woman who alerted the Tower embassy to a possible sister among Rand's entourage, who channeled for all the world to see while attempting to avoid Aes Sedai notice because she was indulging her pique at being refused permission to come aboard a Sea Folk ship, and who goes on to get captured and doom her cause because she couldn't think to take ANY precautions when changing the chain of the harbor in Tar Valon.

Hate the need for the lesson, not the teacher.


Where does Egwene get off assuming the role of teacher? Not only that, she had NO intention of doing do. Her own PoV reveals that she intended to teach no lessons, merely terrorize Nynaeve to distract her from noticing Egwene's own wrongdoing. It was not Nynaeve's incaution that she was trying to "teach" her to supress, it was Nynaeve's insight! You are basically justifying theft on the grounds that the victim would have spent the money foolishly anyway.

Better in the world of dreams by a friend where the memory can be imparted without the damage, then in T'A'R by an enemy or the real world. Plus, Nynaeve remembers this scene with no rancor, proving that she did need the lesson in order to develop further. No reason, IMHO, to act angry on her behalf when she herself did not feel angry over it.


So if a rape victim is not angry but terrorized and full of shame it's not the rapist's fault? Would not the feeling of shame indicate the so-called victim really did have something to be ashamed over?
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Reply to message
There is not enough Egwene hate. Three days without ANY is too long. - 02/09/2009 12:05:29 AM 3122 Views
What I like about Egwene al'Vere - 02/09/2009 02:52:54 AM 1656 Views
Her capabilty to love is astonishing. - 02/09/2009 05:23:24 AM 1181 Views
Re: Her capabilty to love is astonishing. - 02/09/2009 06:38:55 AM 1155 Views
Re: Her capabilty to love is astonishing. - 03/09/2009 02:48:58 AM 1091 Views
Re: Her capabilty to love is astonishing. - 03/09/2009 05:34:35 AM 1032 Views
Re: Her capabilty to love is astonishing. - 02/09/2009 04:42:43 PM 1067 Views
Re: Her capabilty to love is astonishing. - 02/09/2009 04:50:12 PM 1034 Views
Re: Her capabilty to love is astonishing. - 02/09/2009 04:54:43 PM 938 Views
I take objection to Mat. - 03/09/2009 02:34:37 AM 1048 Views
I don't really agree - 03/09/2009 05:13:46 AM 1005 Views
not a wish - 03/09/2009 01:30:30 PM 982 Views
Re: not a wish - 03/09/2009 04:42:53 PM 992 Views
Re: not a wish - 03/09/2009 05:01:33 PM 1101 Views
I think you're being a bit unfair - 04/09/2009 12:50:19 AM 1082 Views
Bah... here's my version - 02/09/2009 04:40:00 PM 1183 Views
Re: Bah... here's my version - 02/09/2009 07:20:21 PM 1155 Views
I'll dispute #2 and #4 - 02/09/2009 09:36:55 PM 1075 Views
OK - 02/09/2009 10:10:26 PM 896 Views
Re: OK - 03/09/2009 05:10:46 AM 955 Views
Re: OK - 03/09/2009 04:12:07 PM 959 Views
Yes, I have always wondered about that. - 03/09/2009 08:31:43 AM 901 Views
Re: Bah... here's my version - 03/09/2009 02:22:24 AM 965 Views
Rand had to do the same thing, though. - 03/09/2009 04:14:22 PM 1135 Views
Bah right back. - 04/09/2009 11:54:30 PM 1285 Views
Re: Bah right back. - 05/09/2009 03:04:09 PM 1001 Views
Ah, just like the good ol' days - 02/09/2009 07:31:36 PM 964 Views
Hear, hear! *NM* - 02/09/2009 09:37:43 PM 447 Views
... - 02/09/2009 09:37:50 PM 989 Views
Now you just need your 35 part series on her... - 03/09/2009 02:45:16 AM 1190 Views
That is a Wise One approach. - 03/09/2009 04:43:53 PM 1019 Views
So what? - 04/09/2009 11:30:28 PM 1089 Views
Re: Now you just need your 35 part series on her... - 03/09/2009 09:07:22 PM 1063 Views
Why do you hate me so much? *NM* - 04/09/2009 09:40:34 PM 485 Views
Enough... please - 01/11/2009 01:13:15 PM 917 Views

Reply to Message