You could and I believe those familiar with epic fantasies would get the joke behind that comment as well
And if that is all I have in my review? It'd be a lump of turd.
Of course, I think he had more to it than that, but opinions vary, it seems
I don't think that's all there is to it, or else I wouldn't have posted it here (or at best, it would have been posted with a disclaimer noting that it was nothing but snark, to be taken lightly). The issues he raises about the nature of the sex/violent scenes, the way the prose is constructed, the plot branches, character development (or perceived lack thereof) are issues that are worthy of discussion. How well he explores those issues is the matter of contention, I suppose.
But he hasn't raised any issue about sex and violence. His complaints about the absence of sex have nothing to do with his complaint that the good guy Trolloc battles are boring, except that the first comes immediately after the next.
Well, it seems he's elaborated a little bit on these two points in his latest review. Whether or not that actually addresses what you raise is an entirely different matter
If he had tried to analyze this aspect of the book, it would have been very obvious because he'd have to go from treating RJ like some mindless drone who writes the first thing that comes to his mind to one who has a motive when he writes something.
Or someone who seems to write his fetishes into the plot?
The prose issues are certainly there, but only insofar, I think, as saying that this isn't anything great. For the most part, the prose is inoffensive, barely noticeable at all. That might be a complaint he could make, how usually drab it is, how Jordan seems to rarely try and come up with something beautiful, despite the fact that his story presents many opportunities for moments of great prose. But that isn't something Robert's is talking about.
I disagree about the prose being "inoffensive." I have read all but the prequel (well, the novel form of it) and that's despite the prose, which is horrendous.
He made a close brush to actually talking about the characters when he (legitimately) criticized the romance in the novels. But what of other stuff? I'd argue that while Jordan never wrote complicated, characters, he does succeed more than most fantasy authors in creating memorable characters who grow and change in a realistic manner. Who they are, and their original beliefs affect their actions as much as the events of the books change them. And tSR is a good place to notice that, because this is the first time our bunch of heroes has stopped merely reacting to their enemies but actually have their own plans. Which is why they successfully defy Moiraine, and we are shown that what seemed great wisdom and power was but a show. A mention of at least some of these aspects would have made me take him seriously. But he bothered with none of it.
I differ with you on this, as I don't believe there's a good character development pattern to this series. Oh, the author may attempt to show this, but from what I recall (and my memory is fairly good, but 10 years' span from the last time I read books 1-9 is going to weaken it), the dialogues and internal monologues were rather monotonous and repetitive and did not show much in the way of the characters actively changing. But that's me on that, although I suspect that's an opinion that several readers of the series may share; I wouldn't really know for sure, though.
Actually, I agree that a single overarching review would have worked better, but since he chose to review each of the 12 individually, I guess the main sticking points will be made over and over. But here's a question that just occurred to me - How much "growth" do we see in the series from a technical aspect? Is the structure of the prose and scenes relatively static, or do we see discernible shifts in how characters and situations are presented?
I'd say there is a big shift. The first three books may be passable adventure novels, but they never manage to give the impression that what the characters are doing matters much to the world. As the characters were busy facing sundry threats, we never saw them contemplating how what they did could change the world.
OK, I could see that, even if "changing the world" is a rather presumptuous thing outside of heroic fantasies, I guess
That begins to change with this book, and it is best seen in what I like to call "study" scenes, where characters are in a room for the whole scene, and all that is happening is that they're talking. But, events of the world are revealed to the reader (not as info-dumps) as their relevance to the actions of the characters are discussed as well.
I think that got muddled a bit, particularly in the latter books, as I seem to recall thinking that it seemed they were repeating the same type of conversations, just with different supporting characters and that nothing had really changed.
Part of this is because our characters are moving up in the world. They are no longer sleeping in the loft worried about the cold. But more importantly, the focus of the story itself has shifted. What began as a "lets survive the villains, use our swords and magic, find the next object of power and save the day story" has morphed into something different, something closer to the political stories a lot of present day fantasies are. By the time LoC came out in 1994, I should think that there was no other fantasy series that concerned itself so much with the currents of politics, communication and perspective.
If you mean multi-volume epic/heroic fantasies, perhaps. I seem to recall there being quite a few works from that era that touched upon several of those elements. Michael Moorcock I know worked politics into several of his stories from the 1960s onwards and Ursula Le Guin most certainly covered the latter two in her Earthsea novels of the 1970s.
Another way this impacted the scenes is the way non-PoV characters were presented in a scene. In the earlier books, they are usually talking pieces of furniture. As the weight and importance of all of the major characters increases, so too do the conversations and the interactions between them seem better rounded, having more weight.
Seems to me, again based on memory recall, that those others became more like more ponderous pieces of furniture there
Those are indeed aspects I wonder if Roberts has seen. Perhaps it'll appear in a later review? If it doesn't, then I'd agree with you that it was a major oversight on his part.
Let's see.
Maybe in a week or two?
I don't know if it's as much this book or it appears in the next two, though. But yes, this is an important issue. Question is, how well did Jordan execute this vision?
It appears in this book, specifically in connection to the Aiel he so easily dismisses as pointless. With other Prophesies, there is wiggle room, but with the Aiel, it is made clear to Rand that he is going to massively shake them up, and destroy more than he can save. He even begins in this book.
But what meaning will this have? I never really got the sense of a looming tragedy here, to be honest.
If there is one aspect of the series that I think RJ handled well, it is this. This knowledge changes Rand, but slowly, each thing building to the next, till we see the events in tGS. RJ doesn't sugar coat this aspect of the story at all, and this has the important effect of keeping the readers sympathetic to Rand even when he descends into serious ass-holery. It is an area where I find most authors failing. The obvious cases like Goodkind, but also people like GRRM (with Jon Snow). All too often, the hero of the story finds sudden inspiration to be ultra-competent or some quickly resolved emotional crisis which leaves him emotionally stable and ready to face the future.
Don't quite get the Jon Snow reference, to be honest, as I remember him being fairly sympathetic throughout (but it's been 7-8 years since I last read a SOIAF book in full, so my memory in regards to that series is about as good as it may be for the earlier books of this one).
In some ways, perhaps, the is the best legacy of this series. I suspect Rand is, in a way, and inspiration for the "failed savior" who's the villain in Sanderson's first Mistborn novel. And maybe other such failed heroes.
Maybe for Sanderson, but I doubt it strongly for others, as that motif has been around for a long time. Even in genre fiction, Moorcock I know played with it in "Behold the Man," although that story was much more explicitly religious in tone.
I'd probably do what I've been trying to do online for years (and in the classroom), which is tease out elements of contention and then ask questions in such a way as to (hopefully) get the student to ask deeper questions without being told by me that s/he was wrong.
Nice one (and I believe you). But this is hardly something you expect to do when someone with experience in the field is writing a review, no?
The only thing I expect when I read a review is that the reviewer has a discernible point of view based on his/her experiences with the work at hand.
How many Anglo-Americans do you expect would make any sort of connection to the Jains? Sometimes, the xeroxed source becomes viewed as being the original source because of cultural differences/ignorance of other societies. Viewing this through the lens of privileged information makes interpreting his conclusions tricky. Yes, you are aware of those parallels, but for someone who is not and this being an issue where relatively few readers would be aware, are you interpreting his stance as being one that should reflect a deeper, more reflective understanding, an understanding that usually doesn't occur the first time something is read? It's the very fact that his WoT posts are so obviously that of someone who's never read the various arguments on the books' sources/influences that fascinates me - you don't often get that around forums like this...because oftentimes, some regulars are so used to their pet interpretations or have come to view neophyte reader interpretations as facile or just wrongheaded that sometimes they lash out at the new readers, often silencing them in the process.
Good point about the Jains not being an obvious reference. But while naming them may be beyond Robert's, the critical scene of this book, where Rand sees through the eyes of his Aiel ancestors into their non-violent past, should at least have clued him in to the fact that there are some very non-Fremen influences that have been woven into Aiel society.
Perhaps, or maybe the ancestral memory elements in the latter Dune novels would have come to mind here as well?
More importantly, those events make it abundantly clear to the blindest of readers what the importance of the Aiel is to the story, yet Robert's found no reason to comment upon it. The reason is probably that he skimmed through all this and got the significance of nothing, but that is hardly excusable.
To be honest, if the Aiel are that important to the story, then the author(s) perhaps should have spent more time with them after the fifth book, as for whole books, there's barely anything at all referencing their inner conflicts over what is happening.
Can't say I agree with your assessment of why his piece is worth a read though. Plenty of new people enter message boards with their own assessments and ideas of what the books mean. And while it will take time before they are seen as people worth reading and paying attention to (if they are good), there is no "drowning" out of interpretations. Not a month goes by without someone complaining about the pace of the books, or the women or a host of other things. And they are heard because they don't completely deride the books and then provide no concrete basis for their judgment.
While some here are close to being up at arms with me because I do have a few derisory comments and some concrete basis for them, even if most of the points are debatable (as they should be)?
I mean, look at his final list of "wise sayings". It is abundantly clear he read one that irked him, and to juice up his review, he randomly picked out sentences from the book and added them. As someone pointed out, some of those were normal dialogue, and none of those were as absurd as he implied them to be. It is the kind of thing I despise.
Interesting, as I recall reading some of them and finding them mildly irritating, but admittedly not worthy of dwelling on them.
Not because of who he is and what he does, but because the perspective is different from those who post regularly on the topic. May not agree with some (or any) of it, but having such perspectives to consider from time to time can be invaluable in getting experienced readers to reflect back on their own development. Or at least I'd hope something like that would be taking place.
That might have been the case if he had actually shown that he read the books, considered them, and then reviewed them. That is blatantly not the case.
I dunno. I do think he had some perceptive things to say, but what appeals to some is not going to appeal to others. Found it interesting how much he disliked the fifth book, though.
Perhaps compared to those, but I'm comparing it to itself here.
I was just explaining why it is not much discussed.
Ah, OK.
I haven't read them, but apparently some of RJ's other works had a lot more sex, so it doesn't seem like he's against it in writing or something. But certainly an interesting issue to discuss.
I wonder if those had quasi-fetish scenes in them as well
I don't know if that's the case or not. Will be curious to see what he has to say to your blog comment, though.
That should be fun to read.
Who knows? I'm trying not to, but it may be a case where I'm downplaying certain aspects because I can see the point, even if I don't always agree with the delivery!
I can see some of the points too. Which is why I said nothing at all when he reviewed the first three books. I don't think them as terrible as he does, but I can understand. Didn't stop me from noticing that he was getting repetitive, and failing to treat each book by its own merits.
Fair enough.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT.
19/03/2010 09:30:25 PM
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Heh, While I agree with him about it being derivative, I still encourage people to read it.
20/03/2010 02:36:47 AM
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My problem with the reviews:
20/03/2010 06:29:08 AM
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Hear Hear !!! ....................... = ........................ *NM*
20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM
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well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 06:51:29 AM
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Re: well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 02:12:43 PM
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I'm amused by some of the responses
20/03/2010 07:20:03 PM
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Are you suggesting that we are unqualified to disagree with him ?
20/03/2010 11:21:44 PM
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No, I said rather that it's ridiculous to make such disparaging comments about his takes
20/03/2010 11:37:56 PM
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I will reply to myself: What's the problem McFly , chicken ?
21/03/2010 12:29:36 AM
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My sister called me chicken once
10/04/2010 01:18:31 AM
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Re: I'm amused by some of the responses
23/03/2010 04:50:42 PM
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And I'm even more amused by this response
24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM
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On a completely unrelated note...
24/03/2010 06:15:25 AM
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Ha!
24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM
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My congratulations then . *NM*
24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM
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Wow, you guys have completely missed the point of the Wheel of Time series
22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM
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There's a point to it?
22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM
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Yes, RJ has explained it at least a few times and the main sequence of each book invokes his message *NM*
24/03/2010 02:09:01 AM
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You're not taking me seriously now, are you?
24/03/2010 02:54:37 AM
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I meant the reason why RJ wrote WoT in the first place
24/03/2010 06:39:47 AM
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And which, arguably, could be viewed as being done in a hackneyed way
24/03/2010 07:15:55 AM
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I thought the point was to write about a bunch of stuff happening?
09/04/2010 03:42:49 PM
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pfft wth-ever
26/03/2010 12:35:53 AM
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Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
26/03/2010 12:28:19 PM
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bla bla bla
29/03/2010 06:17:07 AM
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Wow. That post was more entertaining than Mr. Roberts' review. Thank you *NM*
29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM
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You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 08:54:03 AM
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Re: You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 09:13:44 AM
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I know you were, thus the at the least of my comment
29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM
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Unimpressed
29/03/2010 10:50:07 PM
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Isn't that a bit uncharitable, Dom, considering how much you approved of what I did with CoT?
30/03/2010 12:03:48 AM
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Re: Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
29/03/2010 04:32:23 PM
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Might want to re-read their Wikis again.
29/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
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Awards
29/03/2010 07:42:03 PM
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That link is out of date
29/03/2010 07:54:56 PM
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Re: That link is out of date
29/03/2010 08:22:03 PM
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This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 08:47:54 PM
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Re: This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 09:03:07 PM
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*considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:28:06 PM
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Re: *considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:44:58 PM
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The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 12:24:56 AM
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Re: The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 01:33:04 PM
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No, no, no
30/03/2010 06:38:41 PM
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Re: No, no, no
30/03/2010 07:51:34 PM
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Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 02:10:13 AM
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Re: Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 03:56:57 PM
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He's now reviewed the third book
26/03/2010 12:27:16 PM
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Well, this time I must disagree with him .
29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM
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I don't think he was claiming that RJ was alone in doing that
29/03/2010 07:44:07 AM
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Hah!
29/03/2010 06:07:28 PM
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Well...
29/03/2010 06:52:10 PM
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Differing perspectives, I guess.
29/03/2010 07:58:13 PM
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I suppose
29/03/2010 08:50:43 PM
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Re: I suppose
30/03/2010 12:18:30 AM
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Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 12:52:01 AM
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Re: Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 07:45:08 AM
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But why only them?
30/03/2010 08:07:00 AM
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The Shadow Rising review
02/04/2010 09:42:53 AM
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I wonder if this borders on trolling
02/04/2010 02:29:58 PM
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That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 09:16:25 PM
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Re: That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 10:28:56 PM
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I agree, Roberts is more and more coming across to me as just bitter
10/04/2010 01:24:52 AM
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Little late to this one as well
10/04/2010 11:12:04 AM
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Perhaps you should have led with this bit
10/04/2010 02:52:23 PM
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I guess I just presumed that people would read the header to his blog
12/04/2010 03:54:10 AM
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What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 08:00:45 PM
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Re: What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 09:22:13 PM
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See my comment below
02/04/2010 09:32:54 PM
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Re: See my comment below
03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM
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Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week
07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM
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Speaking of irritation
02/04/2010 10:50:04 PM
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To be fair, even among the RaFOers there have been tons of posts that missed certain events
09/04/2010 03:47:30 PM
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Commentary, then?
02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM
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Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:11:18 PM
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Re: Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:31:56 PM
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Re: Here's the thing...
03/04/2010 01:34:05 AM
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I somehow overlooked this last week, it seems
10/04/2010 11:01:17 AM
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Re: Commentary, then?
05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM
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for a man that bitterly complains about an author who is padding his work
08/04/2010 09:41:07 PM
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1400 words is long-winded?
09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM
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since you can sum up those 1400 words in about 25 yes that's longwinded
09/04/2010 01:36:16 PM
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Except I didn't really sum it up, as I left out quite a bit
10/04/2010 11:15:42 AM
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You are very defensive over this
10/04/2010 01:54:15 PM
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Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else
12/04/2010 03:57:12 AM
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Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts
07/04/2010 08:59:28 PM
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I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
07/04/2010 09:50:39 PM
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Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
08/04/2010 01:06:20 PM
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Which Invisible Man?
09/04/2010 09:58:44 AM
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He brings up some interesting points, if in an unnecessarily rude manner
08/04/2010 12:42:25 PM
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To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM
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why are you so bothered by people being unimpressed with Roberts?
10/04/2010 02:19:08 PM
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Not bothered as much as I am bemused by the ad hominems, to be honest
12/04/2010 04:11:12 AM
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And in vol. 5, Roberts discovers the horrors of the circus
09/04/2010 09:57:03 AM
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Basically he just states the "nothing happens"-argument...
09/04/2010 03:26:02 PM
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Well, what was really resolved here?
10/04/2010 11:25:25 AM
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Well...
12/04/2010 05:05:20 PM
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So very little was resolved and much was set into motion, then?
12/04/2010 06:55:45 PM
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Yes...
12/04/2010 10:51:08 PM
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Ever read Umberto Eco's How To Travel with a Salmon?
12/04/2010 11:07:19 PM
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I guess...
13/04/2010 10:03:03 AM
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Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest
13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM
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Nah...
13/04/2010 05:29:34 PM
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He's read and enjoyed Proust, among others
13/04/2010 07:37:39 PM
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Ah, well...
13/04/2010 09:45:45 PM
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Dismissive, much?
13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM
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About that bifurcation...
14/04/2010 02:02:15 AM
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Sorry that I was busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to reply until now
15/04/2010 01:46:54 PM
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I'm sorry, but he's totally right. "The Circus" made me put down this series for 5 YEARS.
09/04/2010 03:38:16 PM
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Lord of Chaos commentary
16/04/2010 03:39:39 PM
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No no. It was Lord of Heaven!
16/04/2010 05:51:11 PM
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Yeah, I noticed that
16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM
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I would love the see him review Goodkind...
16/04/2010 11:51:07 PM
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I don't wish that on anyone who doesn't have copious amounts of alcohol
16/04/2010 11:57:41 PM
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A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
23/04/2010 08:36:17 AM
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Re: A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
29/04/2010 06:02:28 PM
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I disagree
29/04/2010 09:34:49 PM
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The Path of Daggers commentary
07/05/2010 10:39:03 AM
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Winter's Heart
21/05/2010 12:46:14 PM
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I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
21/05/2010 04:49:31 PM
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Re: I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
25/05/2010 05:05:09 PM
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WH was my least favorite novel in the series, and that is saying a lot.
28/05/2010 03:15:13 PM
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I completely agree with his KoD post. Here is my favorite quote:
28/05/2010 03:08:31 PM
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Roberts reflects back on WoT 1-11, with answers to questions asked of him
25/06/2010 12:51:29 PM
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This guy should be burned at the stake
25/06/2010 03:22:34 PM
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Are you done making a fool out of yourself, Mark?
26/06/2010 06:53:37 PM
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Oh come on...
26/06/2010 09:06:01 PM
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Well, the burning at the stake was a bit much...
26/06/2010 10:19:40 PM
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Well, really! You brought the comment to his notice...
26/06/2010 11:34:08 PM
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And your point is...?
27/06/2010 12:37:00 AM
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Well...
27/06/2010 05:38:12 AM
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Indeed... I think it's rather clear that Larry's goal has been to cause trouble
27/06/2010 10:57:36 AM
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It's not about honour being beschmirched. It's about poor quality arguments. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:09:23 PM
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One year later...
27/03/2011 03:40:29 AM
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Re: One year later...
28/03/2011 05:03:32 PM
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I see you subconsciously support critical takes.
28/03/2011 11:41:48 PM
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No I conciously support telling you and him that you are pathetic, arrogent, & jelous. *NM*
30/03/2011 01:40:36 PM
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Jealous?
30/03/2011 05:20:32 PM
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You both are jelous of Jordan's tremendous succes.
30/03/2011 10:27:36 PM
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Please learn how to spell the word "jealous" before tossing it about in the cavalier fashion you do
30/03/2011 10:54:36 PM
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The fact that you teach is supposed to be a surprise?
31/03/2011 01:23:45 PM
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After reading the standard-issue checklist of generic, tossabout pejoratives...
01/04/2011 03:06:18 PM
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I agree, I didn't even notice it was an old post, definitely did not deserve to be revived. *NM*
30/03/2011 02:41:12 PM
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Now I notice as well that this is a year old. You're very silly, Larry, very silly. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:13:38 PM
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Yep!
30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM
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He's not an "author", he's just a stupid troll, do not feed him *NM*
30/03/2011 02:39:19 PM
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