Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week
Larry Send a noteboard - 07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM
Well, it's probably more of a general comment than anything related to this topic specifically, it just gave me an excuse to post about something that's been irritating me a lot. Too many people seem to be equating cynicism with realism. I appreciate stories set in a darker tone, but I also enjoy idealistic ones. And frankly, whenever someone accuses The Lord of the Rings of not being realistic I can only wonder if they are idiots. It is pretty obvious that it was never intended to be thus. Something cannot fail at achieving something that wasn't it's objective in the first place. Like picking up some centuries old classic and complaining that it doesn't address modern issues, or watching porn and complaining that it doesn't have deep and engaging plots. True, certainly, but why would you expect them to?
I agree, to an extent. I do believe that works ought to be judged primarily on their own merits and faults, which is probably where some of the critiques of WoT on its comparative levels of violence and emotional/physical relationships come into play. I think that is a fair critique to do, as long as it keeps it within the framework of that story itself.
I've read of people expecting obviously idealistic stories to be more cynical. Do you know The Legend of Zelda? A popular video game, where you incarnate the silent protagonist Link who embodies the virtue of Courage as he seeks to retrieve the magical Sword of Evil's Bane that only the True Hero can wield and use it to vanquish the Dark Lord Ganondorf and save the Princess Zelda. And yes, those capitalisations were necessary, I think. Anyway, you'd expect that with such a pretty obvious core it would be quite obvious that it isn't aiming for a dark and grim mood that gets proposed as 'realistic'. And yet, I recently read someone who wrote that he felt the series needed just that (link provided). I can only wonder, why? There is no lack of games that offer this perspective to players, should it be what they desire. Why would you want to turn a game that obviously has the opposite theme and bludgeon it to fit your perspective of what a good story should be?
Yes, that is an amusing example of wish (non)fulfillment, I suppose
Furthermore, sometimes it doesn't even follow anything as clear as that. Some people just use 'realism' as a definition of anything they see fit. I remember reading such a complaint about Robert Jordan's profanity in The Wheel of Time from the Westeros forums. Things like 'mother's milk in a cup' and so forth, being 'unrealistic'. I can only wonder. I've nearly only heard popular American profanity from some of my friends who have been in the army and served in the company of English Canadians, and it isn't because I only know very well mannered people. Likewise, the profanity in common use around here could probably be written on this board with no fear of Sidious reprimanding me, I'm sure.
Cultural differences, no? I do agree with what you say here, but the WoT profanities have never bothered me one way or the other. It was always the faux ornateness of the prose that grated after a while, as it seemed the descriptions were an attempt to cover up characterizations that were never fully realized.
Even in France - same language, same religion - Québecois profanity would be more a source of amusement and curiosity than offence. And the same goes inversely, I do hear a lot of joking about French profanity - it is very anally-centred (whereas ours is sacrilegious) which raises questions about the location of the speaking Frenchman's head, that this is all he has to speak of.
Ha! I still think the harshest profanity was a Romanian one I pieced together from clues that a Romanian publisher left me a couple of years ago. Something about telling someone to go bugger himself on the crucifix headstone of his mother's grave.
So I wonder, why would expecting a significantly different culture in a fantasy world set at a different time to have identical profanity to that which is common to the reader be considered 'realistic'? I would expect it to be the other way 'round. And yet it isn't.
But yes, that is kinda funny For me, having read two of the author's works, there isn't graphic sex in them, but in the places where it appears, the scenes fit with the overall mood/tone of the story. I think an argument (a very debatable one, though) could be made that the depictions of violence and sex are a bit skewed in this series. One doesn't need to say "Oh, Elayne, I'm going to fuck you in the cornhole until you scream 'Let the Dragon ride again!' baby!" to have intimate scenes that correlate better with the depictions of fireballs, explosions, and limbs being blown apart. Perhaps just a depiction that's closer to how young adults experience emotional relationships rather than an odd, stilted viewpoint on emotional/sexual relationships?
Well, if that were the case I wouldn't complain, in part because it might be valid criticism, and in part because I am definitely not ideally suited for arguing on such a subject.
Of course, just because something may be valid, does not mean that opposing viewpoints are automatically invalid. I dislike a lot of the mechanics of the storytelling in this series due to my experiences with a wide variety of writing and can defend that fairly well when I choose, but doubtless others can emphasis elements of the writing that "work" for them and can make strong cases for considering that viewpoint. Might not change my (or others' opinion, but presenting it is better than nothing, I believe.
However, I do not feel that is what the authour is about. Take the following, from the criticism of The Dragon Reborn:
So, for instance, The Dragon Reborn remains coy on the subject of sex. In one chapter Mat is visited in his bedroom by the evil Selene ('so beautiful he almost forgot to breathe' which causes the young lad 'tingle and pain' [227] as well it might; but nothing more explicit is stated. (Then again, chapter 42 is called 'Easing the Badger', which may well become my new favourite onanistic euphemism). There's spits and spots of violence, but this all feels been-there-done-that tired -- already! and we're only in vol. 3!
He's not commenting about a flawed depiction of emotional relationships, I'm pretty sure he's just mocking Jordan for dodging his way out of saying that Mat had an erection. And the second part also shows that it isn't a criticism of the sex-to-violence descriptions, as he also considers the violence underwhelming.
Well, I agree that for that particular scene, that does imply. But I'm also thinking of how that reticence to explore what is going on with those teen heroes creates an emotional distance that makes for stilted characters. As for the violence, that can be added to what I interpreted without changing it, right?
Now, personally I agree with you that violence is far more easily broached than sex in the series, but from what I know about American exported media, it seems to be a prevalent trait in the United States to be prudish and enjoy violence. Not that we're significantly different here, but such a difference doesn't really surprise me from RJ.
True. Sometimes I wonder if I'm really an American at times, considering how much casual violence irritates me and how little sexual frankness shocks or bothers me
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
Author Adam Roberts tackled the WoT.
19/03/2010 09:30:25 PM
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Heh, While I agree with him about it being derivative, I still encourage people to read it.
20/03/2010 02:36:47 AM
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My problem with the reviews:
20/03/2010 06:29:08 AM
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Hear Hear !!! ....................... = ........................ *NM*
20/03/2010 06:37:11 AM
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well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 06:51:29 AM
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Re: well I agree and disagree
20/03/2010 02:12:43 PM
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I'm amused by some of the responses
20/03/2010 07:20:03 PM
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Are you suggesting that we are unqualified to disagree with him ?
20/03/2010 11:21:44 PM
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No, I said rather that it's ridiculous to make such disparaging comments about his takes
20/03/2010 11:37:56 PM
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I will reply to myself: What's the problem McFly , chicken ?
21/03/2010 12:29:36 AM
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My sister called me chicken once
10/04/2010 01:18:31 AM
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Re: I'm amused by some of the responses
23/03/2010 04:50:42 PM
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And I'm even more amused by this response
24/03/2010 01:11:50 AM
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On a completely unrelated note...
24/03/2010 06:15:25 AM
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Ha!
24/03/2010 06:34:48 AM
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My congratulations then . *NM*
24/03/2010 06:36:11 AM
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Wow, you guys have completely missed the point of the Wheel of Time series
22/03/2010 05:28:07 PM
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There's a point to it?
22/03/2010 06:47:12 PM
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Yes, RJ has explained it at least a few times and the main sequence of each book invokes his message *NM*
24/03/2010 02:09:01 AM
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You're not taking me seriously now, are you?
24/03/2010 02:54:37 AM
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I meant the reason why RJ wrote WoT in the first place
24/03/2010 06:39:47 AM
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And which, arguably, could be viewed as being done in a hackneyed way
24/03/2010 07:15:55 AM
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I thought the point was to write about a bunch of stuff happening?
09/04/2010 03:42:49 PM
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pfft wth-ever
26/03/2010 12:35:53 AM
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Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
26/03/2010 12:28:19 PM
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bla bla bla
29/03/2010 06:17:07 AM
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Wow. That post was more entertaining than Mr. Roberts' review. Thank you *NM*
29/03/2010 08:23:41 AM
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You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 08:54:03 AM
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Re: You must have low standards for entertainment
29/03/2010 09:13:44 AM
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I know you were, thus the at the least of my comment
29/03/2010 09:19:30 AM
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Unimpressed
29/03/2010 10:50:07 PM
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Isn't that a bit uncharitable, Dom, considering how much you approved of what I did with CoT?
30/03/2010 12:03:48 AM
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Re: Dude's been up for more awards for his writing than RJ ever was
29/03/2010 04:32:23 PM
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Might want to re-read their Wikis again.
29/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
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Awards
29/03/2010 07:42:03 PM
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That link is out of date
29/03/2010 07:54:56 PM
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Re: That link is out of date
29/03/2010 08:22:03 PM
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This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 08:47:54 PM
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Re: This is a battle of win/lose?
29/03/2010 09:03:07 PM
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*considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:28:06 PM
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Re: *considers employing the Chewbacca defense*
29/03/2010 09:44:58 PM
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The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 12:24:56 AM
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Re: The final point explains the "defense"
30/03/2010 01:33:04 PM
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No, no, no
30/03/2010 06:38:41 PM
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Re: No, no, no
30/03/2010 07:51:34 PM
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Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 02:10:13 AM
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Re: Still continuing, huh?
31/03/2010 03:56:57 PM
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He's now reviewed the third book
26/03/2010 12:27:16 PM
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Well, this time I must disagree with him .
29/03/2010 07:31:40 AM
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I don't think he was claiming that RJ was alone in doing that
29/03/2010 07:44:07 AM
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Hah!
29/03/2010 06:07:28 PM
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Well...
29/03/2010 06:52:10 PM
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Differing perspectives, I guess.
29/03/2010 07:58:13 PM
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I suppose
29/03/2010 08:50:43 PM
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Re: I suppose
30/03/2010 12:18:30 AM
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Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 12:52:01 AM
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Re: Hey, DomA, do you know why the Shienarans randomly speak in the Old Tongue?
30/03/2010 07:45:08 AM
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But why only them?
30/03/2010 08:07:00 AM
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The Shadow Rising review
02/04/2010 09:42:53 AM
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I wonder if this borders on trolling
02/04/2010 02:29:58 PM
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That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 09:16:25 PM
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Re: That would be a mistake
02/04/2010 10:28:56 PM
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I agree, Roberts is more and more coming across to me as just bitter
10/04/2010 01:24:52 AM
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Little late to this one as well
10/04/2010 11:12:04 AM
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Perhaps you should have led with this bit
10/04/2010 02:52:23 PM
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I guess I just presumed that people would read the header to his blog
12/04/2010 03:54:10 AM
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What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 08:00:45 PM
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Re: What review? I couldn't find one...
02/04/2010 09:22:13 PM
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See my comment below
02/04/2010 09:32:54 PM
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Re: See my comment below
03/04/2010 09:31:22 AM
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Sorry I'm late in responding, but I've been quite busy this week
07/04/2010 09:45:48 PM
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Speaking of irritation
02/04/2010 10:50:04 PM
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To be fair, even among the RaFOers there have been tons of posts that missed certain events
09/04/2010 03:47:30 PM
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Commentary, then?
02/04/2010 09:27:18 PM
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Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:11:18 PM
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Re: Here's the thing...
02/04/2010 10:31:56 PM
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Re: Commentary, then?
05/04/2010 03:44:07 PM
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for a man that bitterly complains about an author who is padding his work
08/04/2010 09:41:07 PM
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1400 words is long-winded?
09/04/2010 10:07:41 AM
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since you can sum up those 1400 words in about 25 yes that's longwinded
09/04/2010 01:36:16 PM
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Except I didn't really sum it up, as I left out quite a bit
10/04/2010 11:15:42 AM
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You are very defensive over this
10/04/2010 01:54:15 PM
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Nah, more of a devil's advocate than anything else
12/04/2010 03:57:12 AM
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Well Larry I have started reading Gradsil by Adam Roberts
07/04/2010 08:59:28 PM
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I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
07/04/2010 09:50:39 PM
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Re: I demand a paragraph by paragraph review, with footnotes!
08/04/2010 01:06:20 PM
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Which Invisible Man?
09/04/2010 09:58:44 AM
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He brings up some interesting points, if in an unnecessarily rude manner
08/04/2010 12:42:25 PM
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To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 10:05:49 AM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
09/04/2010 01:28:17 PM
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Re: To be honest, I doubt most readers of the series obsess over it that much
10/04/2010 11:40:22 AM
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why are you so bothered by people being unimpressed with Roberts?
10/04/2010 02:19:08 PM
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Not bothered as much as I am bemused by the ad hominems, to be honest
12/04/2010 04:11:12 AM
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And in vol. 5, Roberts discovers the horrors of the circus
09/04/2010 09:57:03 AM
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Basically he just states the "nothing happens"-argument...
09/04/2010 03:26:02 PM
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Well, what was really resolved here?
10/04/2010 11:25:25 AM
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Well...
12/04/2010 05:05:20 PM
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So very little was resolved and much was set into motion, then?
12/04/2010 06:55:45 PM
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Yes...
12/04/2010 10:51:08 PM
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Ever read Umberto Eco's How To Travel with a Salmon?
12/04/2010 11:07:19 PM
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I guess...
13/04/2010 10:03:03 AM
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Sounds like you value prolixity for the sake of prolixity, to be honest
13/04/2010 04:41:07 PM
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Nah...
13/04/2010 05:29:34 PM
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He's read and enjoyed Proust, among others
13/04/2010 07:37:39 PM
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Ah, well...
13/04/2010 09:45:45 PM
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Dismissive, much?
13/04/2010 10:52:30 PM
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About that bifurcation...
14/04/2010 02:02:15 AM
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Sorry that I was busy yesterday and didn't have a chance to reply until now
15/04/2010 01:46:54 PM
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I'm sorry, but he's totally right. "The Circus" made me put down this series for 5 YEARS.
09/04/2010 03:38:16 PM
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Lord of Chaos commentary
16/04/2010 03:39:39 PM
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No no. It was Lord of Heaven!
16/04/2010 05:51:11 PM
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Yeah, I noticed that
16/04/2010 11:16:26 PM
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I would love the see him review Goodkind...
16/04/2010 11:51:07 PM
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I don't wish that on anyone who doesn't have copious amounts of alcohol
16/04/2010 11:57:41 PM
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A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
23/04/2010 08:36:17 AM
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Re: A Crown of Swords - or is it deco-porn?
29/04/2010 06:02:28 PM
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I disagree
29/04/2010 09:34:49 PM
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The Path of Daggers commentary
07/05/2010 10:39:03 AM
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Winter's Heart
21/05/2010 12:46:14 PM
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I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
21/05/2010 04:49:31 PM
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Re: I think WH was my least favorite of the WoT novels I re-read
25/05/2010 05:05:09 PM
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WH was my least favorite novel in the series, and that is saying a lot.
28/05/2010 03:15:13 PM
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I completely agree with his KoD post. Here is my favorite quote:
28/05/2010 03:08:31 PM
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Roberts reflects back on WoT 1-11, with answers to questions asked of him
25/06/2010 12:51:29 PM
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This guy should be burned at the stake
25/06/2010 03:22:34 PM
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Are you done making a fool out of yourself, Mark?
26/06/2010 06:53:37 PM
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Oh come on...
26/06/2010 09:06:01 PM
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Well, the burning at the stake was a bit much...
26/06/2010 10:19:40 PM
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Well, really! You brought the comment to his notice...
26/06/2010 11:34:08 PM
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And your point is...?
27/06/2010 12:37:00 AM
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Well...
27/06/2010 05:38:12 AM
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Indeed... I think it's rather clear that Larry's goal has been to cause trouble
27/06/2010 10:57:36 AM
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It's not about honour being beschmirched. It's about poor quality arguments. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:09:23 PM
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One year later...
27/03/2011 03:40:29 AM
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Re: One year later...
28/03/2011 05:03:32 PM
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I see you subconsciously support critical takes.
28/03/2011 11:41:48 PM
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No I conciously support telling you and him that you are pathetic, arrogent, & jelous. *NM*
30/03/2011 01:40:36 PM
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Jealous?
30/03/2011 05:20:32 PM
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You both are jelous of Jordan's tremendous succes.
30/03/2011 10:27:36 PM
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Please learn how to spell the word "jealous" before tossing it about in the cavalier fashion you do
30/03/2011 10:54:36 PM
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The fact that you teach is supposed to be a surprise?
31/03/2011 01:23:45 PM
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After reading the standard-issue checklist of generic, tossabout pejoratives...
01/04/2011 03:06:18 PM
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I agree, I didn't even notice it was an old post, definitely did not deserve to be revived. *NM*
30/03/2011 02:41:12 PM
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Now I notice as well that this is a year old. You're very silly, Larry, very silly. *NM*
30/03/2011 04:13:38 PM
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Yep!
30/03/2011 05:16:38 PM
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He's not an "author", he's just a stupid troll, do not feed him *NM*
30/03/2011 02:39:19 PM
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