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Not necessarily Cannoli Send a noteboard - 18/03/2010 03:17:10 PM
I agree, especially about Egwene and Elayne (as the new leaders of the status quo). Mat and Perrin are the only two of the 5 Randland 'kids' willing to go with the lesser of two evils choices and not have things fall in their laps. Mat is willing to slaughter thousands of Seanchan for no reason other than to get Tuon to safety - not because they were a direct threat to him or because he was trying to save Altara. And Perrin allies with the Seanchan and risk thousands to rescue a handful of people (that he ended up with many more wasn't planned).
I wouldn't even call what Mat & Perrin did wrong. Both of their enemies ARE already enemies, and both are invaders. Both could be said to be at war with Mat's & Perrin's side, so all they were doing was carrying out legitimate military operations, regardless of their personal motivations. Mat fought the Seanchan not so much because of the threat to Tuon, but because it was impossible to extricate his force from Seanchan lands. He would have been perfectly happy sneaking out, except there was no way out with the army blocking the way into Andor. He had to attack the other Seanchan forces to lure that army into moving out of his way. The threat to Tuon was only brought up to eliminate the idea of using her to talk their way through. After all, armies are not as much of a threat if you have their ruler as a potential hostage, or a companion who is willing to grant you safe passage. That was not a choice for Mat, because they were looking to kill Tuon.

As for Perrin's campaign against the Shaido, they had his wife. While that might seem like a personal and private concern to modern eyes, in a worl like WoT, familial relationships are not only a valid basis for policy decisions, they are EXPECTED to be such a basis. That is why rulers and nobles marry their children off to form alliances - it is expected that your daughter's husband or son's wife will exercise his or her power in the interests of the extended family, or that their heirs will act to the benefit of their grandparents. In addition, the subjects would expect such actions of their rulers, too. If Perrin won't do all in his power to save his wife, the woman he sleeps with and is supposed to cleave to as one flesh, how can they trust he will protect near-strangers as some of his subjects are? If he won't go all out to rescue his wife, how far can an ally like Berelain trust him? A man who won't come to the aid of his wife when she is kidnapped is not likely to defend his allies or vassals from invasion. And, let us not forget, the Shaido took Alliandre as well. That was half of Perrin's mission in the first place, and aruably the more important half. Since it was not jeopardizing the other half of the mission, he was OBLIGATED to do whatever it took to rescue Alliandre.

The fact of the personal motivations that existed for Mat & Perrin do not make their actions any less justified. As Faile pointed out to Perrin in the Two Rivers, having a personal reason does not invalidate a righteous action. In that case, he was concerned that his private motivation for revenge caused him to unworthily get his friends killed, but as she said, killing Trollocs is a good thing, regardless of whatever additional reasons Perrin brought to the table. The fact that in a hypothetical choice he never had to make, Perrin thinks he would let Alliandre die to save Faile does not change the fact that his campaign to save both of them was not only a justified, but a mandated and necessary act.

Rand has been willing to a small extent, but how much more of a consolidated hold would he have on the land and be able to face (or already have defeated) if he'd (ironically) been more like the Seanchan in forcing conquered rulers to bow (I.e. the Andoran lords) and hang those who didn't? Sure he'd be a lot less popular, but a Tear, Cairhein and Andor with compliant rulers by part way through LOC. That and the Shaido dealt with. With a compliant Andor the Shaido could have been crushed and after Illian dealt with the Seanchan crushed with all his forces after the short campaign came undone at the end. Ditto time to deal with the festering sores of the borderlanders and the Black Tower, as they wouldn't be so bad as his attention wouldn't have been wasted playing politics.
Except in his defense, the Seanchan invasion was unforeseen, the rebellions in Tear & Cairhien collapsed without causing Rand any more bloodshed (as Egwene notes, that makes reconciliation afterwards exponentially harder, and it is far more true for real politics than should be true for Aes Sedai), because he WAS distracted with other matters and could not spare the time to send men in to die while crushing Toram, Darlin et al. As far as the notion of his imitating the Seanchan, it is a little more complex than that. The Seanchan have institutions and set procedures and have practically made a science of conquering and expanding their empire, and their entire military and bureaucracy is on the same page and knows their principles and practices. We see in tGS that Rand has to negotiate with his best warriors and play semantics to get them to go along with his tactics. He simply does not have the time, or arguably, the means, to thoroughly suppress resistance and incorporate the nations into a single polity, much less convert them to his subjects. The nations of WoT have moved beyond monarchism to nationalism. They identify as Andorans or Cairhienin or Tairen, and the Murandians who prefer their local lords or communities to their national identity are viewed as abberrant and backwards, much like a contemporary person who might say "I am not an American, I am a New Jerseyite" or "I am not English, I am a Yorkshire man." A millenium of tradition is a lot to overcome in time to face a crisis less than two years away. That is why Rand would prefer to work through trustworthy rulers like Darlin or Elayne, who know, understand and personally get along with him. That way the people's natural loyalties are maintained intact with little fighting, and the presumptive loyalty of the ruler is such that there is no difference in the people being loyal to the ruler rather than the Dragon Reborn.

For Rand especially, unlike Elayne and Egwene, attempts to be fair and preserve the status quo, have cost him dearly.

How much more interesting would the inevitable meeting of Rand and Elayne have been if he'd taken the Egwene with Gawyn route? 'Elayne as a person I love you with all my heart,
Or one third, as the case may be.
but as Queen of Andor you must bow publicly to me or I'll put someone on the throne'. Now that sort of personal sacrifice where no matter how she answers it'd have driven a wedge between them. Not 'Here's the throne', 'What!?!? I'll get it myself', 'Ok', 'Yah, I've won it', 'Woo, it took months, cost soldiers much needed at Tarmon Gaidon, wasted time we could have worked together with Andors soldiers bringing other lands behind the DR to face the DO, but Wooo, you were obviously right!'.
That would be an interesting scenario, but with the set up of WoT, it is completely counter-indicated in this case. While it took bloodshed to put Elayne on the throne, can you really say that there would have been less if he tried it any other way? Unless the books had gone completely differently, there seems no way for a scenario to arise where Rand could get away with deposing Elayne in favor of anyone else. As it is, if Elayne can win Andor's hearts and minds, their relationship, if handled the right way, can be the vehicle to make Andorans accept Rand. Your proposed scenario could only work if they liked Rand but had turned against Elayne.
For example, perhaps without the advent of Rahvin, if the populace stayed hostile to Morgase and the Tower, and Rand helped them in some way so as to be popular with the common folk as in Illian, then when Morgase dies of VD or something, the Tower tries to peremptorily have Elayne crown while making some sort of PR blunder that turns Andor against them...sure. Then your scenario would be plausible AND be able to provide an interesting character conflict.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Did the characters come too easily to power? - 16/03/2010 11:37:31 PM 1850 Views
hehe I think I fell asleep during that read :p *NM* - 17/03/2010 01:12:55 AM 393 Views
Yes, and for Rand at least IMO, playing nice has cost dearly - 17/03/2010 04:59:32 AM 887 Views
Not necessarily - 18/03/2010 03:17:10 PM 835 Views
Good post. - 27/03/2010 01:43:24 PM 700 Views
Unfortunately, no. - 31/03/2010 10:23:58 AM 812 Views
Re: Unfortunately, no. - 02/04/2010 07:54:10 AM 636 Views
All the way through, up to ripping her self-delusional assessments of her "achievements" in KoD - 02/04/2010 09:27:54 PM 722 Views
A shame I missed it, then - 04/04/2010 08:55:40 AM 704 Views
Re: A shame I missed it, then - 10/04/2010 08:17:38 AM 676 Views
Cliffs notes anyone? *NM* - 17/03/2010 05:31:02 AM 1483 Views
TLDR *NM* - 17/03/2010 05:43:01 AM 559 Views
Trolloc luRns da Reeading? - 17/03/2010 08:27:23 AM 849 Views
Too long, didnt read *NM* - 17/03/2010 04:23:34 PM 337 Views
Cmon ppl pls reply to this, Cannoli has spent such a long time writing it.... I couldn't be bothered *NM* - 17/03/2010 10:31:38 AM 359 Views
*NM* - 17/03/2010 10:32:04 AM 369 Views
Re: Did the characters come too easily to power? - 17/03/2010 01:38:02 PM 819 Views
Thank you *NM* - 18/03/2010 03:17:52 PM 445 Views
I agree, very well written and thought out. - 19/03/2010 07:32:59 AM 767 Views
I did read it and it was good - 17/03/2010 02:33:26 PM 701 Views
I agree... *NM* - 17/03/2010 02:48:19 PM 382 Views
That depends on certain interpretations... - 18/03/2010 03:29:15 PM 922 Views
Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall... - 17/03/2010 02:49:55 PM 793 Views
Re: Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall... - 17/03/2010 06:15:18 PM 749 Views
I agree - 18/03/2010 03:35:05 PM 856 Views
Strong vs. Hard in other words - 19/03/2010 05:10:41 AM 712 Views
Loooong *NM* - 17/03/2010 03:52:25 PM 404 Views
Look who's talking - look at how you write "long" ! - 18/03/2010 02:06:42 PM 683 Views
Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 17/03/2010 05:35:08 PM 763 Views
Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 17/03/2010 10:08:34 PM 906 Views
Oh and I forgot to add - 18/03/2010 01:41:28 AM 796 Views
Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points. - 18/03/2010 03:37:09 PM 776 Views
I think this is an excellent analysis - 18/03/2010 01:56:33 PM 784 Views
Thanks. *NM* - 18/03/2010 04:28:52 PM 411 Views
While most of this is true... - 19/03/2010 06:47:19 AM 681 Views
Siuan's failure to properly help Rand should motivate Egwene to overthrow...oh, right. Egwene. - 19/03/2010 11:52:10 PM 728 Views
What do you mean by "properly"? - 20/03/2010 07:57:26 AM 698 Views
She did that because the Black Ajah was her personal boogeyman - 20/03/2010 09:58:54 AM 835 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 06/04/2010 06:00:07 AM 742 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 07/04/2010 11:31:47 PM 956 Views
Re: The To'Raken - 09/04/2010 06:22:38 AM 668 Views

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