Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points.
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 17/03/2010 10:08:34 PM
I agree - read it in sections or something. We all read a series of novels that produce 3+ inch thick paperbacks!
As to the content: I have the easy part, responding to a well-argued opinion. Cannoli makes some excellent points. He also highlights a lot of things nicely, and offers some good critique. Still, he's a little hyperbolic on some points:
-Rand/Perrin/Mat don't have to challenge their beliefs or do bad things for good results (aka "forced to play the nice guy for the greater good":
Rand terrifies the girls that he grew up with to make sure that DO believes the Two Rivers means nothing to him. Not very nice, making all those hometown girls cry, huh? In TSR, he's repeatedly angered at himself for the dictatorial and threatening way he must deal with Tear's nobility.
Both times, he grapples with doing things he despises to achieve what he needs. I would love a Rand that plays a lot smarter, especially in ways that aren't melodramatically foolish. His list of women is bad, but he feels disgust when he wards a waygate in a cool manner. Still, he was very naive, dealing with a lot on no experience.
Also, I think Rand had his belief system challenged when he learned that he had something that everyone reviled (saidin). Then he was told that he was someone whose name was a blight. He had to learn to accept himself as a channeler, and the role of Dragon (which means he's gonna destroy a lot of people).
Meanwhile, in TEOTW, Perrin has to kill when his wolf-friend is attacked. Perrin always regretted his clash with the Children. Even in killing, he has done things that test his values - in TSR he comes to say "it was kill or be killed."
Later, he devises the worst torture he can think of (for an Aiel) to try to get a location for his wife. That act scared most of the ordinary folk around him. A little later, Perrin allies himself with the Seanchan, which he initially considered about as dark as "a deal with the Dark One."
Mat is hardest to defend on that front. Still, he sacrifices his desire for peace and safety repeatedly. As to the girls, yes, I don't see them compromising themselves much in the way that you describe.
Except in the case of Nynaeve, of course. While she's not a ruler, she had to also accept herself as being something that she reviled. She had much the same position as Rand in that matter - she accepted what she was becoming because she had no choice and because she felt she could do the most good through acceptance.
Cannoli wrote a nice and interesting analysis, regardless of my critique...
One final note: IMO, Tear never fawned over Rand. In one night, their impenetrable seat of power was overtaken by THE DRAGON, destiny, and a force of Aiel who swore to him. They also learned that a Forsaken was quietly running the place. The Tairen nobles decided to talk to the focus of attention, someone they considered human enough to talk to (i.e., Not Aiel). Still, they only did that to manipulate him.
As to the content: I have the easy part, responding to a well-argued opinion. Cannoli makes some excellent points. He also highlights a lot of things nicely, and offers some good critique. Still, he's a little hyperbolic on some points:
-Rand/Perrin/Mat don't have to challenge their beliefs or do bad things for good results (aka "forced to play the nice guy for the greater good":
Rand terrifies the girls that he grew up with to make sure that DO believes the Two Rivers means nothing to him. Not very nice, making all those hometown girls cry, huh? In TSR, he's repeatedly angered at himself for the dictatorial and threatening way he must deal with Tear's nobility.
Both times, he grapples with doing things he despises to achieve what he needs. I would love a Rand that plays a lot smarter, especially in ways that aren't melodramatically foolish. His list of women is bad, but he feels disgust when he wards a waygate in a cool manner. Still, he was very naive, dealing with a lot on no experience.
Also, I think Rand had his belief system challenged when he learned that he had something that everyone reviled (saidin). Then he was told that he was someone whose name was a blight. He had to learn to accept himself as a channeler, and the role of Dragon (which means he's gonna destroy a lot of people).
Meanwhile, in TEOTW, Perrin has to kill when his wolf-friend is attacked. Perrin always regretted his clash with the Children. Even in killing, he has done things that test his values - in TSR he comes to say "it was kill or be killed."
Later, he devises the worst torture he can think of (for an Aiel) to try to get a location for his wife. That act scared most of the ordinary folk around him. A little later, Perrin allies himself with the Seanchan, which he initially considered about as dark as "a deal with the Dark One."
Mat is hardest to defend on that front. Still, he sacrifices his desire for peace and safety repeatedly. As to the girls, yes, I don't see them compromising themselves much in the way that you describe.
Except in the case of Nynaeve, of course. While she's not a ruler, she had to also accept herself as being something that she reviled. She had much the same position as Rand in that matter - she accepted what she was becoming because she had no choice and because she felt she could do the most good through acceptance.
Cannoli wrote a nice and interesting analysis, regardless of my critique...
One final note: IMO, Tear never fawned over Rand. In one night, their impenetrable seat of power was overtaken by THE DRAGON, destiny, and a force of Aiel who swore to him. They also learned that a Forsaken was quietly running the place. The Tairen nobles decided to talk to the focus of attention, someone they considered human enough to talk to (i.e., Not Aiel). Still, they only did that to manipulate him.
Did the characters come too easily to power?
16/03/2010 11:37:31 PM
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Yes, and for Rand at least IMO, playing nice has cost dearly
17/03/2010 04:59:32 AM
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Not necessarily
18/03/2010 03:17:10 PM
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Good post.
27/03/2010 01:43:24 PM
- 700 Views
Unfortunately, no.
31/03/2010 10:23:58 AM
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Re: Unfortunately, no.
02/04/2010 07:54:10 AM
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All the way through, up to ripping her self-delusional assessments of her "achievements" in KoD
02/04/2010 09:27:54 PM
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TLDR *NM*
17/03/2010 05:43:01 AM
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Cmon ppl pls reply to this, Cannoli has spent such a long time writing it.... I couldn't be bothered *NM*
17/03/2010 10:31:38 AM
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Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall...
17/03/2010 02:49:55 PM
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Re: Rand is at the perfect position after TGS for his downfall...
17/03/2010 06:15:18 PM
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I usually read Cannoli's epic-length posts...
17/03/2010 04:08:33 PM
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Ha! Imagine if I didn't double-space the paragraphs. That is a fairly new practice on my part. *NM*
18/03/2010 03:36:13 PM
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I'd suggest you had more paragraphs......with a lot of spacing..... *NM*
19/03/2010 04:42:05 AM
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Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points.
17/03/2010 05:35:08 PM
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Re: Sheesh, you people are babies. I read it. Some good points.
17/03/2010 10:08:34 PM
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Oh and I forgot to add
18/03/2010 01:41:28 AM
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I would say those cases are both examples of aknowledging their own limitations and priorities
18/03/2010 04:02:13 PM
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Re: Did the characters come too easily to power?
17/03/2010 06:10:22 PM
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I was more focussed on the cost of GETTING power, not the prices of discharging it responsibly
18/03/2010 04:27:18 PM
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While most of this is true...
19/03/2010 06:47:19 AM
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Siuan's failure to properly help Rand should motivate Egwene to overthrow...oh, right. Egwene.
19/03/2010 11:52:10 PM
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Re: The To'Raken
06/04/2010 06:00:07 AM
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