Um.. thanks. Now how about an explanation that Rand is the main character?
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 19/02/2010 07:22:11 PM
It seems that Elayne's career will peak as the best supporting actress... true stardom is probably not on the cards for her. Since the beginning of the series, she hasn't been much more than a supporting character with no real depth. Next to Nynaeve, Egwene and Aviendha, she seems to be a distant second. Let's review some of her accolades...
On the one hand, yes, there is no question that she has ever been more than a supporting character. The disproportionate PoV in the early-late books (in aCoS & tPoD combined I think she has more PoV pages than any other character) notwithstanding, she has never been seen (or argued) to have any role more than a supporting character. That heavily weight of her PoV, combined with her connection to Rand and autonomous storyline, has tended to elevate her towards Nynaeve and Egwene as far as billing, but if the whole series was being credited movie-style, she would be no higher than sixth-billed, and Moiraine, Lan or Loial would all have a good case for being higher (actually, Moiraine would be most likely to the be last billed, with the "&" though that might also be Thom).On the other hand, arguing that she is second to Aviendha in anything other than hand-to-hand combat or suitability as a love interest is ridiculous, and a fair case can be made that she has outdone Egwene in accomplishments, depending on your yardstick. If you don't hold the Tower as important in its own right, Egwene doesn't have a hell of a lot to go on, and further accomplishments will be undercut by having the most powerful institution in the main region at her background. Kind of like Rand's claims toward military genius based on his conquests at the head of an army unmatched in size or fighting ability.
1. She's the new Queen of Andor. So? That makes her about as important and useful as the rulers of Ilian or Mayene.
Except for the fact that of those three nations, the Queen of Andor is the median, that statement could not be more inaccurate. She comes nowhere close in importance to the King of Illian, what him being the most important figure in the world's history, and Mayene is complete insignificant outside of its borders and its potential for causing trouble.
When did we hear about them last, or even care? Elayne's quest to gain the throne has been a plot element for a long time, but it's rather irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. The country has been ripped to pieces by Rahvin, and the Black Tower make no secret that they don't respect her authority.
Except for their refusal to challenge it, and allowing her to inspect it. While that might be in appearance only, in politics appearances are more important than reality. As far as the respect of Taim goes, by this argument, the White Tower is insignificant, since the Black Tower shows far less respect to the Tower and sisters than to Elayne (whose position at the time was analogous to Egwene's in the rebels: a contender for a position whose reach seems to excede her grasp, and only to be reckonned with for narrative reasons - namely, her connection to Rand). As for Rahvin ruining the country, don't mistake the Forsaken as a monolithic pack of clones. What Graendal did to Arad Domon was nothing like Rahvin, Sammael or Bel'al were doing in Tear. They were all competant at their worldly leadership skills and all were using their respective countries as a base of power. They would NOT have been ruining and weakening those nations as Graendal did to Arad Domon or the Shadow did to the wetlands in general. Rhavin created political difficulties - he did not screw up the nation itself, as seen by the far easier time Rand had administering that nation compared to Cairhien or Arad Domon.Even with Elayne as a good ruler behind the helm of a recovering nation, with Tarmon Gai'don around the corner, this country has as much to offer as any other - and as little. It's a flyspeck next to the Aiel, the White Tower, the Black Tower and the Seanchan.
Actually, the White Tower has not much more. Andor can field an army to match four Borderland nations. Even if Elaida reached her recruiting goals and Egwene had matched her, the Tower's unified army is smaller than Andor's by at least half. What is more, Andor represents a far larger proportion of what they are fighting for than both Towers combined, so its security and prosperity form a significant part of whether or not they are winning or losing. If the White or Black Tower is depopulated down to a remnant of a remnant in beating the Shadow, it's a case of "meh." They are all soldiers and that is what they are for - fighting and dying to defend people from the enemy. The loss of the nations, including Andor, undermines the worth of a victory. That's why Rand had to get over his issues before fighting the Dark One and why his victory as a bad guy would be as bad as defeat - because he would do to the nations what the Dark One would. Andor is like the Terri Bauer of WoT - not too useful, something of a drag on the hero(es), but its loss would make even the greatest victory and accomplishments hollow.
2. She can make ter'angreal. Elayne is one of the less Talented individuals in the series. She's not really brilliant at anything as a channeler. Nynaeve, Egwene and Aviendha have rare or powerful Talents that are actually very useful to the Light, and Elayne has made the most basic ter'angreal, which are more like toys than really valuable objects. It's amazing that she's done so - but we know what the Talent can potentially offer, and what she's produced, and it's all been rather useless.
Yes, but then again, too much weight is given to the Power. And so forth. What is more significant is what comes out of it. Without her apparently miniscule explorations of the field, we would never have learned about Aviendha's more important Talent, which will actually enable the good guys to get their hands on necessary or useful items, if anyone actually thinks to use it. Without her studies of the a'dam, the capture and imprisonment of Moghedin could never have been effected, and the subsequent knowledge developed from her would not have come about, including things such as the harbor chain or the disguises used to search for the Bowl or the inverting techniques that would give the good guys more of a chance against the Forsaken. Her interest in ter'angreal might have led to finding the Bowl of the Winds and the exploitation of the accompanying hoard to the extent that has been possible, including Nynaeve's defensive ter'angreal, which might have been the difference between life and death in the fights against Cyndane and Semirhage. Without Elayne's duplication of the Sleepweavers, Egwene would have been deposed by the rebels of necessity, if the cause had not collapsed, or else she might have felt constrained to order a rescue, without the ability to hold meetings of the Hall in Tel'Aran'Rhiod. Dream-email is just not an effective way to run a government.In conclusion, while it seems you are arguing from a narrative position, it is her ability and interest in ter'angreal that might be the most significant skill of any of the ones developed by the Wondergirls. Really, what has Nynaeve's Healing done to advance the plot beyond setting Logain loose, which at this point has been moderated by his douchiness and self-importance? I say this as someone who greatly prefers Nynaeve to Elayne and whose most significant moments of dislike of Elayne are when she smirks knowingly at one of Nynaeve's foot-in-mouth episodes or incidents of bad luck.
When it comes to character assessment, on the other hand, Elayne's talent speaks highest of her than the other two's discoveries. Nynaeve has a natural inclination she was born with, and to her credit, pushed as far as she could. Elayne's required the intelligence to figure out and ascertain what what was required from testing and analysis. Hers is by far the most scientific of the minds of the Trio, and her talent exposes this. All Egwene required was a healthy does of envy and access to information on the preternatural physics of reality that no one else had, which she gained only because her innate Talent, combined with her foolery in T'A'R aroused Amys' pity. As far as Dreamwalking goes, Nynaeve's & Elayne's self-taught skills are far more impressive than Egwene's superior height gained standing on the shoulders of giants. And their accomplishments with Tel'Aran'Rhiod make all who claim the title of Dreamwalker a joke. Capturing a Forsaken, discovering a Seal & the Domination Band, eluding a Forsaken's compulsion, and saving the Dragon Reborn with a crucial distraction far outweigh a horsey ride. Egwene found it hard enough obeying her superiors in T'A'R. Nynaeve & Elayne had to teach their superiors.
From a narrative or character perpective, you can't decry Elayne's particular abilities. Despite her lesser importance, she is close to, if not the equal of Nynaeve or Egwene.
3. She's one of the DR's greatest allies. Not really.
Granted, this is a fairly small and lame pool, but which allies are greater? Ghealdan? Mayene? What other allies does he have? Everyone else is his subordinate. Elayne is having a relationship with Rand, but his other two wives are far more supportive. Aviendha and Min basically live with Rand, and physically aid him or the Light when he runs into trouble. Aviendha gives Rand a unique insight into the odd culture of the Aiel, and Min is a philosopher with the undoubted answer to sealing the DO away, who also happens to be his link to sanity and compassion.
Yeah...no. She abetted the worst of his downward spiral, because she would never give him the kick in the pants he needed, because she could not bear to hurt him, even for his own good, and aside from being dissatisfied because he did not appear to be having as much fun, she didn't really notice or try to do anything until it was too late. If Aviendha helped with the Aiel, Elayne helped with Tear, without giving him any headaches, either. Granted, Elayne would have been no better in his company than Min, as she would not have recognized the problem either, since she seems to have a similar attitude towards responsibility and sees nothing wrong with a leader working himself to death. But Rand's sanity and compassion were regained through his own recognition of his problems, and the catalyzing event was butting heads with his father, whose opinion was actually valuable to him, because it did not come as cheaply as Min's good will. Of all three, ONLY Aviendha had the tools to help him, but she was hardly there.
Elayne is rarely around Rand, and when she is, she is rather abrasive and only wants him for his body. Fair enough, but still second to his other wives. Aviendha makes it a point to defend Elayne's honour constantly - a sure sign that Elayne likes to be present by proxy rather than in the flesh.
That had nothing to do with Elayne and everything to do with Aviendha's own issues and misreading of the situation. You cannot read anything, positively or negatively, about Elayne or anyone else, into Aviendha's struggle to come to terms with her feminine nature. 4. She's done great things. Has she really, or is she merely the lesser of the pair with Nynaeve?
Definitely the latter. She's like the Chloe to Nynaeve's Jack Bauer. She provides back-up and technical know-how to allow the action character to unleash his or her awesomeness in the right direction. It seems that Nynaeve is the one who actually contributes the most when they are together and directly obtains the goals. If anything, Elayne tells Nynaeve to cool it, and think it through. Without Nynaeve, Elayne would have achieved nothing, but the opposite is not true. Conider for instance, Nynaeve and Elayne's attempt to rescue Egwene from the Seanchan - Elayne did nothing. Nynaeve figured out how to undo the a'dam, and she captured the sul'dam. Nynaeve even had to teach her how to be frugal with money.
Elayne DID ramp up the danger by stealing apples and making Nynaeve's victory much more awesome. Elayne hasn't fought alongside Rand once whereas Nynaeve, Egwene, Aviendha and Min have.
Are you saying the capture of half-a-dozen Black sisters and defeat of a larger army with ties to Darkfriends is less important than Min's (self-admitted) ineffectual knife-throwing ability, simply because of the proximity to Rand? In actuality, Elayne & Egwene and other people doing their little political business elsewhere is more important than Min's bedroom contributions, because it frees up things so Rand doesn't have to get involved. This is the thematic significance of Moiraine's words to Rand before Alcair Dal when she spoke about others fighting for him. It was RJ's way of warning us that there would be no more great ingatherings of all the characters until the very end (if then), and that we should keep in mind that these side plots of the other characters were still aiming at the same end as Rand's main story. Elayne has never rescued a dire situation, but has herself been rescued on several occasions - most notably due to her gross incompetence that led to the death of several Aes Sedai and Warders, and thousands of men in her army.
This IS absurd. They died because many more thousands of men attacked her for reasons over which she had no control. Soldiers freaking die in battles, people. Get over it already. No one died because of mistakes Elayne made, and no reasonable course of action that Elayne could have taken could have prevented the incident in KoD. As it was, she maximized the good that came out of it, and was able to see what everyone else missed and enabled the war to be won on that very day, rather than follow the advice of her Hero of the Horn Warder who wanted to scuttle back to safety in the palace, and let the war drag on as along as this attack was thrown back today. Let Egwene do better against an opponent who is actively looking to conquer her city with vastly superior numbers. For someone who was never expected to have to take military leadership, and had reason to expect more loyal troops, a Great Captain or at least a trained military student to do it for her, Elayne did a remarkable job. Unlike certain other channelers, who get captured because they used the Power in Far Madding or openly channeled at the headquarters of the Aes Sedai with no attempt at cover, or trusted Aes Sedai, Elayne could not have expected what happened, and only a policy of such extreme pessimism that she would have been paralyzed from any effective action could have saved from capture in her situation. Yes, she faced nay-sayers, but none of their complaints had merit, and her entire time in Caemlyn was spent fighting their nay-saying, when they were wrong, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. You are criticizing her because she didn't check the time on a stopped clock.5. She's harmed the Shadow less than any other main character. Nynaeve takes the crown as the one who defeated Moghedien, cleansed saidin and supported Rand against various Forsaken such as Semirhage and Graendal.
It's hard to be better than Nynaeve. But I thought being the sidekick undermined your accomplishments? Which one is it? Is Elayne irrelevant because she is merely a sidekick to great accomplishments, or is Nynaeve awesome because she is a sidekick to great accomplishments?Egwene has purged the Black Ajah,
This is ridiculous. Elayne OR Nynaeve, as a sidekick, contributed far more to their principal's victory, such as actually providing intel or something. All Egwene did was what ANYONE could have done with what Verin did. Brandon Sanderson deserves more credit for writing WoT than Egwene does for eliminating the Black Ajah! Nynaeve & Elayne contributed as sidekicks. Egwene basically just exploited the finished product. and her intent was to help Rand fight Rahvin alongside Aviendha - before both of them were injured by Lanfear.
Yes, because Elayne would have refused to contribute if she had been there! And when Elayne needs to be rescued by her own Warder and army and bodyguard (that being their whole raison d'etre, BTW), she's foolhardy, but Egwene rushing in with a frontal assault against one of the Forsaken is noble and courageous? Make up your mind! And we are talking about results here, not intentions. Elayne has had minimal influence against the Shadow. The Black Ajah have been impeded minimally by her, whereas Nynaeve has captured several of them. Elayne even had to be rescued from the gholam, and the Black Ajah on two occasions.
What can I say? Some people just don't have the kind of character that makes the Black Ajah aid and abet them and vote for their proposals in the Hall and be their strongest source of support and most persistant offer of rescue. The Shadow barely notices her, with no Forsaken allocated to her supervision or demise, unlike Nynaeve and Egwene. She was even excluded from Liandrin's little party to be traded to the Seanchan, until she accidentally stumbled into it.
The way Egwene accidently stumbled into Lanfear? I thought intent to help Rand was all that mattered a paragraph ago? Without Elayne coming would Min have had the guts to go barging into initiate matters, considering the pangs she always took to distinguish herself from them, and thus rendering Nynave unable to find Egwene effectively in time? Without the moral support of Elayne or her protective, guiding Wisdom instincts kicking in, would Nynaeve have operated at as high a level as she had? Maybe Elayne's presence there was like Hurin's with Rand - not so much for what they could contribute as the effect they had on the hero's sense of responsibility? And as for the Shadow's ignorance, Moghedian's cell seems to think she wants Elayne almost as badly as Nynaeve, and there is a Darkfriend plot, ordered by Moridin to infiltrate her inner circle and bring her down. I suppose, by your lights, Morgase, Elaida, Mattin Stepaneos & the High Lords of Tear were more important than Elayne?
In any event, by its very nature, the Shadow is not the barometer of importance. If they knew what was truly important, they would not be the Shadow.
Sure, Elayne has done some good deeds and she definitely makes a good team with Nynaeve. When she's around the Light is stronger and she's a powerful and intelligent woman. But as an individual, she's a relative non-achiever who relies on stronger women to take the actual plunge. This makes her the best supporting actress, and not a really big shot like the other women who surround the Dragon Reborn.
This is absolutely absurd. She is not an important character in the narrative sense, but that has little to do with their significance and effect on the outcome of events, and your attacks against her are absurd, ESPECIALLY with the particular comparisons you used. A case can be made for her flaws, but your inconsistent standards, and comparisons to characters who are little more than decorative is beyond derision. She might be a minor character, but like many others in the books, she is a formidable individual with a wide array of talents and skills, and one of the paramount notables in the world in terms of power and influence. To argue that Andor is not important is like arguing that during the Cold War, the UK was unimportant given the relative size and power of the USA & USSR. She is the third most powerful political figure after Rand & Tuon and a proper assessment of the White Tower's importance (regardless of who happens to be in charge) would drop Egwene below her in rank or standing as well. Egwene has charge of the destinies of a thousand or so of the more powerful, educated and wealthiest women in the world, and her defeat would only result in some jumbling of their privileges and positions relative to one another atop the structure of wetland society. Elayne's failures would be a matter of life and death for thousands if not millions of people. A good gueen can protect her nation from a bad Amyrlin. There is not much a good Amyrlin can do to protect those same people from a bad queen, without setting a dangerous precedent and giving the Tower a bad name for interference.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Elayne... best supporting actress?
19/02/2010 04:21:58 PM
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Um.. thanks. Now how about an explanation that Rand is the main character?
19/02/2010 07:22:11 PM
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Re: Um.. thanks. Now how about an explanation that Rand is the main character?
03/03/2010 06:29:13 AM
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Re: Um.. thanks. Now how about an explanation that Rand is the main character?
10/04/2010 04:00:12 AM
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I always though Elayne was annoying and generally a distraction from the interesting plots
10/04/2010 05:59:14 AM
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