Sure, way to convince me. Compare her to two of the most despicable Anglophonic rulers in history
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 08/02/2010 05:18:55 AM
One has to differentiate between the private person, and one who is called upon to rule. In Egwene's case, she has to be both a Private person, and a Public person. On top of that, she now has the responsibility of leading the now-reunited Aes Sedai.
That is Macchiavellian bullsh!t, and a false distinction invented to excuse the moral failings of leaders.In a time when rulers of any kind are rarely hampered by constitutional checks on their powers-Earth during Middle Ages and Renaissance period,and seemingly all of Rand's world-a ruler very often simply can't afford to be seen as a kindly person.
Except that was her complaint about Elaida - she was not being nice enough and violating her constitutional limitations on her powers! I don't care what your fantasy worlds are like, in WoT, there are laws and rules curtailing the authority and power of the Amyrlin Seat, which Egwene acknowledges by criticizing Elaida for violating them, while hypocritically ignoring her own violations, even in her head.A ruler in that type of cultural mindset
which does not actually exist, except in your fanfiction...needs to be seen as both autocratic, and in touch with the people he/she rules. Two real world examples would be Henry VIII, and his daughter, Elizabeth I.
A pair of arrogant, power-hungry tyrants, who elevated themselves to religious figures, abused the ancient and traditional rights of their countrymen, murdered large numbers of people for personal convenience or pique, and are known to have been vain, immoral and selfish people whose political skill did little good to their nations and actually served more to accumulate power or status for themselves.I don't imagine one could call either one of them very nice people. But they did superbly well by their nation. And this, in spite of having to face some very serious problems, some self-created, others not.
They did NOT do "superbly well" by their nations. Rather, they created the conditions that caused people to flee and found colonies where they could live outside of the stifling atmosphere of the nation reshaped to glorify its monarch. They tyrannized their own people, incited rebellions even among people who honored and respected the position and person of the ruler, and abused their powers to enrich themselves.On to Egwene...
The Aes Sedai don't need a nice Amyrlin right now. They need a capable one who is, above all else, a realist.
How is a determination to place the Aes Sedai's petty status issues ahead of the most important man in the world realism?The Aes Sedai don't need a nice Amyrlin right now. They need a capable one who is, above all else, a realist.
They also need one who can bring all the various factions within the Tower to heel; so they're going to need a tough Amyrlin as well...
I thought the problem with Elaida was that she was too tough?They're going to need an Amyrlin who can order the executions of DFs and BAs without batting an eyelash, or dithering.
What the hell is wrong with the Tower that this quality is so rare? This is not a heroic or insightful position! The penalty for being a Darkfriend has been death as far back as the AoL, as it should be! Being capable of pronouncing this sentence is not an indicator of moral courage or political skill, it is merely doing the obvious right thing! A failure to do this is an evil and horrible act. All Egwene shows by doing this is that she is capable of doing the right thing when it stares her in the face and she has no reason or motive to do anything else. What, pray tell, would be a reason for her to do otherwise, that makes this such a smart or noble action on her part? Without such a reason, it does not take much to do this.And they're going to need an Amyrlin who can do all of that, while keeping up expected appearances to both the inside and outside world, while getting rid of factional hatreds.
And you say this about a woman who favors the Greens with absolutely no reason? Getting rid of the factional hatreds is a nice pipe dream for the long term, and utterly irrelevant for Tarmon Gaidon.No, I don't think Egwene's growing up to be a very nice woman at all. But, she can't afford to.
But, she's well on her way to becoming the White Tower's very own Elizabeth I...
You mean a puppet for the capable people, like William & Robert Cecil and so forth? If only we could be so sure.But, she's well on her way to becoming the White Tower's very own Elizabeth I...
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
I was wrong about Egwene.
06/02/2010 09:46:43 AM
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BTW, I am the god of Irony. Bow to me. *NM*
06/02/2010 09:47:20 AM
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I think that if there's a real message to take out of this
06/02/2010 02:55:47 PM
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yes she's politically shrewd if completely amoral
06/02/2010 05:03:19 PM
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Re: yes she's politically shrewd if completely amoral
06/02/2010 06:08:40 PM
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In her defense, she has no way of getting in contact with him
06/02/2010 11:28:37 PM
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Re: In her defense, she has no way of getting in contact with him
06/02/2010 11:47:04 PM
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Re: In her defense, she has no way of getting in contact with him
07/02/2010 02:43:13 AM
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Re: In her defense, she has no way of getting in contact with him
07/02/2010 11:13:39 PM
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It really is her most defining quality
06/02/2010 06:27:17 PM
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That was nothing.
06/02/2010 08:48:39 PM
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The only mitigating factor was that she had already dumped Rand at that time
06/02/2010 11:34:45 PM
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Re: The only mitigating factor was that she had already dumped Rand at that time
06/02/2010 11:51:48 PM
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There was a nice beginning - "Cannoli: I was wrong about Egwene"...
06/02/2010 06:42:18 PM
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A point to understand about Egwene as a ruler... (Incoming wall'o'text...
07/02/2010 06:43:43 PM
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Sure, way to convince me. Compare her to two of the most despicable Anglophonic rulers in history
08/02/2010 05:18:55 AM
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I like Egwene.
08/02/2010 10:22:14 AM
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And the greater good always conveniently requires her being in charge or getting more power *NM*
12/02/2010 12:19:05 AM
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Yes, just like for Rand. *NM*
12/02/2010 12:24:57 AM
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Re: Rand goes out of his way to discarge authority to others; Egwene, well hopefully in the future *NM*
13/02/2010 04:20:31 AM
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Ummm... what? When? *NM*
13/02/2010 04:53:50 AM
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Like his Stewards & supporting loyal rulers. *NM*
15/02/2010 02:30:32 PM
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Darlin, Caroline, Elayne, Ituralde, Bashere, Logain, Rhuarc, etc.
15/02/2010 05:57:05 PM
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Oh you mean all those guys he treats like his personal b*tches? *NM*
15/02/2010 06:10:17 PM
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Re: Oh you mean all those guys he treats like his personal b*tches?
16/02/2010 08:10:02 PM
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Well, Egwene has lackeys too!
15/02/2010 08:12:17 PM
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Re: Well, Egwene has lackeys too!
15/02/2010 10:37:50 PM
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And she does not delegate to them. And no, sorting out rank among minions is not delegating power
15/02/2010 11:00:03 PM
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Rand can certainly be domineering, but nowhere near as much as Egwene.
13/02/2010 06:31:15 AM
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right, because she's threatened to hang people who disobey, or bodily thrown people out of her rooms
15/02/2010 06:11:18 PM
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She's in a different environment. What serious challenge has she faced?
15/02/2010 06:54:53 PM
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people like her in real life are not likeable, but they are necessary in society.
08/02/2010 09:55:35 PM
- 650 Views