Wheel of Time Messageboard: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. by Cannoli

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These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 08/02/2010 04:50:11 AM

Without the White Tower struggle a whole bunch of things might not happen. The White Tower became engulfed with its own issues it couldn't interfer with the rest of the world.

1. Rand would not have been able to accomplish what he needed to do. The White Tower would have tried to "guide" Rand, into what the White Tower thought was necessary. After Rand conquors Cairhein would he have been meet with 30, 40, 50 sisters who have been available to guide Rand. With the sisters guidance would Rand have been able to attack Rahvin? With the sisters guidance would Illian be part of Rand's empire? With the sisters guidance would there be a black tower?

No, but why does he need them now?

2. Would Elayne be on the Andor throne? Elayne was an accepted iniate of the Tower. Elayne may have been allowed to go to Andor and earn the throne (with White Tower guidance), but she would have been forced to return to the Tower to finish her training. The White Tower would have been guiding whoever was named regent. Would the White Tower "advisor" advise the regent to support Rand's goals or the White Tower goals? Andor is now firmly allied with Rand.

And the Tower cannot be anything but an interference with this. Elayne has proven she does not need the support of the Tower (though if there is any help from Rand which she can safely accept, it would be some of his sworn Aes Sedai, since their connection to Rand could be easily laughed off), so why is it so important that Egwene win the fight for the Tower?

3. The Bowl of Winds, angreal, and ter'angreal would not have been found be the Super Girls. The White Tower would have scooped up Nyneave and Elayne and returned them to the Tower. The weather would not have been righted causing millions of deaths. I angreal and ter'angreal will be important. Both Elayne and Aviendha have angreal, the bone handled knife Elayne has will hide her from the Dark, the communication and library ter'angreal will all be important.

And how does the Tower have ANYTHING to do with those? Rather, the trend you describe suggests it would be better to have the split ongoing.

4. Elayne, Aviendha, and Min would not be bonded with Rand. The benefits of that bond are becoming apparent. As an example if Rand tranmigrates into Moridin's body the bonded girls would know who Rand was.

And the Tower is more likely to punish Elayne for that bond than anything. So why is it a good thing that the Tower is reunited?

5. Egwene would not be Amyrlin (I know Cannoli you are having an apoplectic fit). With Egwene as Amyrlin the White Tower will think about helping Rand instead of leading Rand.

In the first place, that is not necessarily a given. That useless, obstructionist organization, that you have spent this post making a case for the harm they would have done without being removed, is where Egwene's sympathies lie! She castigates sisters for letting all this stuff happen. She favors the obstructionist idiots over Rand, and has spoken in this book and others of the necessity of punishing Rand to protect the privileged status of the Tower and Aes Sedai. And in the second place, even if we stipulate her good intentions, what can Egwene really give him that he does not already have a sufficiency of? He has the best Aes Sedai, more female channelers, more troops and more Great Captains than Egwene can bring him, even if she were to kneel to him and lead the Aes Sedai to swear fealty (and if she has such helpful intentions, why is that notion anathema to her? What is wrong with serving the Dragon Reborn until Tarmon Gaidon, unless she is NOT willing to be totally helpful to him, and wants to "guide" him every bit as much as Elaida or Siuan).

6. Without Elaida in charge 50 sisters would not have been sent to the Black Tower and ended up getting bonded. As a result 50 sisters will bond 50 Ashaman. Rand not has at least 100 teams of Ashaman/Aes Sedai who are bonded and could link in the final battle.

And if she had remained in charge perhaps similar blunders would have led to more windfalls for Rand. AGAIN, how does this point prove that the victory over Elaida is a GOOD thing for Rand and the Light?

All you do in this post is list the obvious and well-known benefits of the split. What I was asking is If the split is so good and necessary, why was it so important that Egwene win? What is the significance of her victory? Why should all these benefits of the Tower's benign neglect of Rand and the world cease, and what can Egwene actually provide that is significantly better than that same benign neglect?

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*

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So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Cannoli - 07/02/2010 04:41:58 AM 1798 Views

The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER beetnemesis - 07/02/2010 06:46:51 AM 679 Views

Re: The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER lyringlas - 08/02/2010 05:43:52 PM 555 Views

I think the breaking of the tower was.... brett014 - 07/02/2010 07:55:48 AM 762 Views

Nice idea, that does seem to make sense in hindsight. Lord Haart - 07/02/2010 06:18:35 PM 556 Views

Yes, but that isn't the point. Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:14:32 AM 646 Views

Re: Yes, but that isn't the point. brett014 - 08/02/2010 04:40:52 AM 618 Views

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:55:46 AM 547 Views

Re:

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? brett014 - 08/02/2010 02:43:48 PM 654 Views

Re:

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? Cannoli - 10/02/2010 09:49:59 PM 614 Views

Re: the wise ones. Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:21:55 AM 458 Views

They're not the biggest clan... fionwe1987 - 13/02/2010 02:20:38 PM 559 Views

Thank you Cannoli - 15/02/2010 01:24:05 PM 663 Views

No problem. *NM* fionwe1987 - 15/02/2010 09:05:11 PM 230 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Lord Haart - 07/02/2010 06:14:31 PM 656 Views

Re: The point was that Rand needed the division. Watcher - 07/02/2010 08:34:10 PM 606 Views

small disagreement darius_sedai - 07/02/2010 08:42:07 PM 547 Views

Re: small disagreement Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:37:03 AM 485 Views

Egwene and Siuan have noted that there are plenty of the new Novices darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 04:22:35 PM 554 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:34:52 AM 695 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Lord Haart - 08/02/2010 06:56:01 AM 564 Views

Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien Cannoli - 11/02/2010 11:53:41 PM 606 Views

Re: Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:45:06 AM 622 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? fairfax - 07/02/2010 10:42:27 PM 515 Views

These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:50:11 AM 694 Views

Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. fairfax - 08/02/2010 05:47:36 AM 566 Views

Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. orius - 13/02/2010 09:33:04 AM 446 Views

For that matter, what is the point of Andor? fionwe1987 - 08/02/2010 06:08:32 AM 607 Views

Re: For that matter, what is the point of Andor? brett014 - 08/02/2010 03:38:54 PM 554 Views

Especially true if Lord Haart - 08/02/2010 07:16:04 PM 523 Views

But Tar Valon is critical too. fionwe1987 - 08/02/2010 07:41:43 PM 569 Views

Really? Rurouni_Kenshin - 10/02/2010 05:30:02 AM 487 Views

Three women in a boat... fionwe1987 - 10/02/2010 09:12:41 PM 530 Views

Nothing is ever given as a location for that boat that I recall. Cannoli - 11/02/2010 11:54:39 PM 474 Views

So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. Cannoli - 10/02/2010 10:13:56 PM 607 Views

Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. fionwe1987 - 12/02/2010 12:43:19 AM 631 Views

In this, I agree with Fionwe. Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:31:07 AM 499 Views

Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. Cannoli - 15/02/2010 02:23:57 PM 638 Views

Some good points, but I still disagree. Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 06:30:50 PM 528 Views

fionwe1987 - 15/02/2010 10:08:48 PM 617 Views

my thoughts Yunalesca - 09/02/2010 12:58:30 PM 717 Views

Belief and order give strength. Gher - 10/02/2010 11:20:01 PM 549 Views

To pad the last few books in order to make Egwene the Amyrlin. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/02/2010 05:25:22 PM 505 Views

I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". Lord Haart - 17/02/2010 06:07:25 PM 475 Views

Re: I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2010 11:05:44 PM 536 Views

To unite the Tower under competent leadership, of course. JasonD - 23/02/2010 04:55:02 AM 976 Views

Does a main plotline HAVE to help defeat the DO? car'a'aman - 26/02/2010 04:11:30 PM 660 Views

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<quote id="79223">
<quote>Without the White Tower struggle a whole bunch of things might not happen.  The White Tower became engulfed with its own issues it couldn't interfer with the rest of the world.

1.  Rand would not have been able to accomplish what he needed to do.  The White Tower would have tried to "guide" Rand, into what the White Tower thought was necessary.  After Rand conquors Cairhein would he have been meet with 30, 40, 50 sisters who have been available to guide Rand.  With the sisters guidance would Rand have been able to attack Rahvin?  With the sisters guidance would Illian be part of Rand's empire?  With the sisters guidance would there be a black tower?  </quote> No, but why does he need them now?

<quote>2.  Would Elayne be on the Andor throne?  Elayne was an accepted iniate of the Tower.  Elayne may have been allowed to go to Andor and earn the throne (with White Tower guidance), but she would have been forced to return to the Tower to finish her training.  The White Tower would have been guiding whoever was named regent.  Would the White Tower "advisor" advise the regent to support Rand's goals or the White Tower goals?  Andor is now firmly allied with Rand.</quote> And the Tower cannot be anything but an interference with this.  Elayne has proven she does not need the support of the Tower (though if there is any help from Rand which she can safely accept, it would be some of his sworn Aes Sedai, since their connection to Rand could be easily laughed off), so why is it so important that Egwene win the fight for the Tower?

<quote>3.  The Bowl of Winds, angreal, and ter'angreal would not have been found be the Super Girls. The White Tower would have scooped up Nyneave and Elayne and returned them to the Tower.  The weather would not have been righted causing millions of deaths.  I angreal and ter'angreal will be important.  Both Elayne and Aviendha have angreal, the bone handled knife Elayne has will hide her from the Dark, the communication and library ter'angreal will all be important.</quote> And how does the Tower have ANYTHING to do with those?  Rather, the trend you describe suggests it would be better to have the split ongoing.

<quote>4.  Elayne, Aviendha, and Min would not be bonded with Rand.  The benefits of that bond are becoming apparent.  As an example if Rand tranmigrates into Moridin's body the bonded girls would know who Rand was.</quote> And the Tower is more likely to punish Elayne for that bond than anything.  So why is it a good thing that the Tower is reunited?

<quote>5.  Egwene would not be Amyrlin (I know Cannoli you are having an apoplectic fit).  With Egwene as Amyrlin the White Tower will think about helping Rand instead of leading Rand.</quote> In the first place, that is not necessarily a given.  That useless, obstructionist organization, that you have spent this post making a case for the harm they would have done without being removed, is where Egwene's sympathies lie!  She castigates sisters for letting all this stuff happen.  She favors the obstructionist idiots over Rand, and has spoken in this book and others of the necessity of punishing Rand to protect the privileged status of the Tower and Aes Sedai.  And in the second place, even if we stipulate her good intentions, what can Egwene really give him that he does not already have a sufficiency of?  He has the best Aes Sedai, more female channelers, more troops and more Great Captains than Egwene can bring him, even if she were to kneel to him and lead the Aes Sedai to swear fealty (and if she has such helpful intentions, why is that notion anathema to her?  What is wrong with serving the Dragon Reborn until Tarmon Gaidon, unless she is NOT willing to be totally helpful to him, and wants to "guide" him every bit as much as Elaida or Siuan).

<quote>6.  Without Elaida in charge 50 sisters would not have been sent to the Black Tower and ended up getting bonded.  As a result 50 sisters will bond 50 Ashaman.  Rand not has at least 100 teams of Ashaman/Aes Sedai who are bonded and could link in the final battle.</quote> And if she had remained in charge perhaps similar blunders would have led to more windfalls for Rand.  AGAIN, how does this point prove that the victory over Elaida is a GOOD thing for Rand and the Light?

All you do in this post is list the obvious and well-known benefits of the split.  What I was asking is If the split is so good and necessary, why was it so important that Egwene win?  What is the significance of her victory?  Why should all these benefits of the Tower's benign neglect of Rand and the world cease, and what can Egwene actually provide that is significantly better than that same benign neglect?
</quote>

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