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Re: Compulsion is limited DomA Send a noteboard - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM

Compulsion can't set people off on complex tasks. I think a compelled person is extremely limited and less useful than a normal person. If Ituralde is still compelled, it will be to some singular purpose which will be obvious at the time when it manifests, and easy for the good guys to overcome.


I suggested something during the book tour that Brandon "liked very much".

IMHO, Graendal cast her net the widest she could (she couldn't have Ituralde at her castle for updates every other week, she needed something simple...), and the best compulsion is the one that doesn't go against the person's inner beliefs or instinct. Ituralde was already naturally loyal to his King. So, I think when he came to visit her, Graendal compelled Ituralde to obey his King's orders, no matter what they were. His loyalty wouldn't fail then, not even if some of those orders were absurd. Then, she probably just had to compel him to forget, for example, that Alsalam never summoned him to a secret meeting at Natrin's Barrow (or asked him to go visit Basene), and to forget he came to the place altogether. And voilĂ , Ituralde was at her disposal.



Case in point: Ituralde obeyed Alsalam's plan for the Seanchan despite knowing deep down that it was crazy and almost certainly suicidal. He obeyed each and every one of his crazy orders and counter-orders, even though he knew it made little sense. He questionned the King's sanity, then reasonned out the merchants would not let him rule long if he was out of control. This fits a pattern of compulsion, especially in TGS, when Ituralde reached the "suicidal phase" and was still going on, and his "allies" were still agreing to follow him.

When he got the last letter from Graendal he had gone in hiding, as if he knew deep down that if another letter reached him he would be forced to obey its new orders. It's more than pure loyalty to his friend/king.

All those squabbling nobles from many factions that had suddenly fallen behind Ituralde are also highly suspicious. Whoever they answered to, they probably got similar messages to join Ituralde at that point, or even more simple: they were all compelled to follow Ituralde if one day he asked them for a meeting/alliance. What's also telling, IMO, is the fact those of them who were Dragonsworn were very reluctant to actually follow Rand when he showed up - not very logical. They did follow, because Ituralde agreed to.

I think this is how Graendal macro-managed the country. She didn't compel most people to do very specific missions - that would have forced her to either roam around to update their orders all the time or have each of them come to her regularly. She rather compelled to obey certain sorts of orders. In Ituralde's case, it was specifically the King's, but she had a whole collection of seals at her disposal. Basically, she had courriers do most of the work for her, while she enjoyed her palace. She avoided suspicion that way as well: no one knew where the courriers really came from (and a lot of the persons she would impersonate in writing would be either dead now, or among her pets; Domani First born, royalty, Merchant councilors, the wife of this nobleman and the beloved son of another etc.).
This message last edited by DomA on 28/01/2010 at 08:34:14 PM
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2702 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1400 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1201 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1289 Views
You also ignored... - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1300 Views
and of course, the obvious theme - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1098 Views
Bah! - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1259 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1222 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1462 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1258 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1200 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1003 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1008 Views
that's kind of my whole point - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 948 Views
Uh, not actually at all really - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1247 Views
*shudders* - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1108 Views
*shrugs* - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1151 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1043 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1147 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 975 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1148 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1144 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1085 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1188 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 962 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1147 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 939 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1146 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1119 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1010 Views
Re: - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1118 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1115 Views
Me, Too. - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1101 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1226 Views
I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1068 Views
Re: I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1105 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 936 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1238 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 977 Views
Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1178 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1071 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1015 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1054 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 967 Views
Not really - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1078 Views
Re: Not really - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1114 Views
Re: Not really - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1052 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1049 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 575 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1082 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 968 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1109 Views
read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 820 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 942 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1004 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1172 Views
I don't see any flaws. - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1191 Views
But... - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 939 Views
Re: But... - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1074 Views
That is what I thought ... - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 986 Views
That still doesn't make sense. - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1163 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1194 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1055 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 980 Views
Nonsense. - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 916 Views
Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1095 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1084 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 972 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1017 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 841 Views
We don't know that, exactly - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 917 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 990 Views
Seriously? - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1020 Views
Maybe... - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 973 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 718 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 651 Views
Ok, in more detail: - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1100 Views
I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 839 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1018 Views
Thoughts - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 932 Views
But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1002 Views
Re: But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1077 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 916 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1018 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1141 Views
Indeed... - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1164 Views
Re: Indeed... - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 982 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1011 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 988 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 804 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1018 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1114 Views
That's not fair - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 968 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 947 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 925 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1037 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1078 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 688 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1095 Views
Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 873 Views
Re: Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 993 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 938 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 979 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 969 Views
And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 749 Views
Re: And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1018 Views
Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1075 Views
Re: Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1009 Views
Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1102 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1026 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1014 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 864 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1055 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1001 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1027 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1084 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1047 Views
I disagree. - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1425 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 974 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 988 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1039 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1019 Views
I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1095 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1016 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1024 Views
Spot on. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 679 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1022 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 660 Views
Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 995 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1120 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 886 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 991 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1079 Views

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