Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
taura-tierno Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
"Is Graendal dead?" may well be the most contentious issue in tGS. Like Asmodean's death in tFoH, there is considerable mystery surrounding her death in this book.
While I would say she is alive, that is not what I want to focus on in this post. Instead, let us assume that she is indeed dead, never to return again.
It is then important for us to realize that the events leading to her death are atrociously illogical. How?...
Let's look at how her location was identified.
First, the one person who could tell, her compelled messenger-slave, was killed before he could reveal anything. That is in line with what Graendal would do to protect herself from Rand. It fits, because she knew he was coming, and would obviously do something about it. That is what Rand assumes, and we agreed with this.
The next few steps, however, are quite mind boggling.
We're told another compelled slave of Graendal's, who for some reason, was compelled at Natrin's Barrow rather than in Bandar Eban itself, poisoned the messenger.
He then stays back in the location of the crime! Not only that, he now starts poisoning the merchant Rand imprisons with a slow acting poison!
One might say this was to prevent her from revealing any detail she got out of the messenger. But we know Graendal's compulsion is fool proof from non-OP methods of torture. We see the guys in the prison tell Nynaeve quite clearly that the messenger said nothing at all.
Why kill the merchant then?
If all this has no deeper meaning, if all this did not lead to a trap, then Graendal must have had a bout of extraordinary idiocy.
How do I prevent al'Thor from finding my hideout? Oh! I know! I'll have the guy who can tell him poisoned! I'll send someone from Natrin's Barrow. Then I'll have him stay and needlessly poison others so al'Thor will get suspicious and find him and... oh!
It takes the meanest intelligence to figure that Kerb was not going to help but hinder any plans of Graendal to stay hidden. Graendal, the super smart Forsaken, would certainly have figured this out.
Another alternative is that she did indeed want to lure Rand to her lair, but did not expect the Balefire and so she died.
That is, however, also illogical. Not only do we know that Graendal is never going to have an all out fight, we know she knows that Semirhage was captured by Rand.
She is also aware he has the CK, courtesy Cyndane. She may not know to expect Balefire, but she would certainly know she would stand no chance whatsoever against Rand.
The conclusion? If Graendal is dead, then it was one of the shoddiest sequences in all of WoT. It cheapens and lessens the worth of tGS quite spectacularly.
While I would say she is alive, that is not what I want to focus on in this post. Instead, let us assume that she is indeed dead, never to return again.
It is then important for us to realize that the events leading to her death are atrociously illogical. How?...
Let's look at how her location was identified.
First, the one person who could tell, her compelled messenger-slave, was killed before he could reveal anything. That is in line with what Graendal would do to protect herself from Rand. It fits, because she knew he was coming, and would obviously do something about it. That is what Rand assumes, and we agreed with this.
The next few steps, however, are quite mind boggling.
We're told another compelled slave of Graendal's, who for some reason, was compelled at Natrin's Barrow rather than in Bandar Eban itself, poisoned the messenger.
He then stays back in the location of the crime! Not only that, he now starts poisoning the merchant Rand imprisons with a slow acting poison!
One might say this was to prevent her from revealing any detail she got out of the messenger. But we know Graendal's compulsion is fool proof from non-OP methods of torture. We see the guys in the prison tell Nynaeve quite clearly that the messenger said nothing at all.
Why kill the merchant then?
If all this has no deeper meaning, if all this did not lead to a trap, then Graendal must have had a bout of extraordinary idiocy.
How do I prevent al'Thor from finding my hideout? Oh! I know! I'll have the guy who can tell him poisoned! I'll send someone from Natrin's Barrow. Then I'll have him stay and needlessly poison others so al'Thor will get suspicious and find him and... oh!
It takes the meanest intelligence to figure that Kerb was not going to help but hinder any plans of Graendal to stay hidden. Graendal, the super smart Forsaken, would certainly have figured this out.
Another alternative is that she did indeed want to lure Rand to her lair, but did not expect the Balefire and so she died.
That is, however, also illogical. Not only do we know that Graendal is never going to have an all out fight, we know she knows that Semirhage was captured by Rand.
She is also aware he has the CK, courtesy Cyndane. She may not know to expect Balefire, but she would certainly know she would stand no chance whatsoever against Rand.
The conclusion? If Graendal is dead, then it was one of the shoddiest sequences in all of WoT. It cheapens and lessens the worth of tGS quite spectacularly.
You base much of your argument on the fact that Kerb revealed her location, and that it would be illogical of Graendal to arrange that poisoning and everything, with someone who knows where she is.
But all Forsaken believe themselves superior to everyone in the 3rd Age, except perhaps Rand. Why would Graendal believe that, even IF someone did find one of her Compelled victims, someone would be able to remove the Compulsion? Let alone manage it, and have the person survive long enough to say anything at all. Maybe she counted on the boy dying immediately upon the removal of her weaves. Which he didn't.
Still, she's the best at Compulsion. There's no reason for her, in her arrogance, to believe that anyone could successfully undo her Compulsion to the degree that Nynaeve managed. And even Nynaeve wouldn't have been able to do it without Rand's instruction, and even then, it was a great challenge for her.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
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I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
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The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
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After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
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I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
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I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
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well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
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Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
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Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
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I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
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26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
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I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
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Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
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Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
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The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
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Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
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Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
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But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
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Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
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no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
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read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
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LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
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But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
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Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
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Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
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Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
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I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
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Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
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By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
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I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
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That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
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I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
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It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
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I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
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But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
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So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
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Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
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And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
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Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
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That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
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Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
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Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
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Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
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I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
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I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
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You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
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I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
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Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
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Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
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I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
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Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
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