Active Users:904 Time:15/09/2025 07:56:24 AM
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
Saying "Well, you can't prove your case" does not make a person right. As with all science, the burden of proof lies upon the person putting a new theory forward.

As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.

A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:

1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.

2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.

3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.

4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).

5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.

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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2825 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1551 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1354 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1452 Views
You also ignored... - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1455 Views
and of course, the obvious theme - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1273 Views
Bah! - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1416 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1384 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1631 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1405 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1347 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1159 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1162 Views
that's kind of my whole point - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1099 Views
Uh, not actually at all really - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1404 Views
*shudders* - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1274 Views
*shrugs* - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1301 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1204 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1288 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1127 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1291 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1309 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1243 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1353 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1112 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1311 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1099 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1295 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1286 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1159 Views
Re: - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1276 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1296 Views
Me, Too. - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1275 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1373 Views
I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1216 Views
Re: I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1260 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1105 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1379 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1133 Views
Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1328 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1205 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1173 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1211 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1107 Views
Not really - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1221 Views
Re: Not really - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1282 Views
Re: Not really - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1204 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1172 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 631 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1240 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1146 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1298 Views
read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 955 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1069 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1145 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1286 Views
I don't see any flaws. - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1329 Views
But... - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1086 Views
Re: But... - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1232 Views
That is what I thought ... - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1134 Views
That still doesn't make sense. - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1310 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1344 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1190 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1128 Views
Nonsense. - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1064 Views
Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1254 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1226 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1118 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1174 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 994 Views
We don't know that, exactly - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 1067 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1141 Views
Seriously? - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1162 Views
Maybe... - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1118 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 782 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 724 Views
Ok, in more detail: - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1238 Views
I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 988 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1169 Views
Thoughts - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1083 Views
But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1124 Views
Re: But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1220 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 1054 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1129 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1297 Views
Indeed... - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1308 Views
Re: Indeed... - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1136 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1139 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1135 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 946 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1161 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1267 Views
That's not fair - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1106 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1081 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1073 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1187 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1305 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 750 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1252 Views
Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 1021 Views
Re: Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1117 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1077 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1125 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1108 Views
And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 896 Views
Re: And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1184 Views
Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1235 Views
Re: Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1155 Views
Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1266 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1155 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1172 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 1016 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1206 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1143 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1182 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1227 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1204 Views
I disagree. - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1572 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1122 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1133 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1174 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1159 Views
I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1229 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1193 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1165 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1184 Views
Spot on. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 741 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1170 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 725 Views
Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1148 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1272 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 1049 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1143 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1229 Views

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