Active Users:530 Time:23/02/2025 09:13:09 PM
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
Saying "Well, you can't prove your case" does not make a person right. As with all science, the burden of proof lies upon the person putting a new theory forward.

As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.

A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:

1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.

2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.

3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.

4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).

5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.

Reply to message
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2720 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1451 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1247 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1345 Views
You also ignored... - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1356 Views
and of course, the obvious theme - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1165 Views
Bah! - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1318 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1278 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1517 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1314 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1254 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1067 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1067 Views
that's kind of my whole point - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1004 Views
Uh, not actually at all really - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1303 Views
*shudders* - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1171 Views
*shrugs* - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1205 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1104 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1196 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1024 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1202 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1198 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1143 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1264 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1017 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1207 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 991 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1203 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1180 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1063 Views
Re: - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1177 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1169 Views
Me, Too. - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1161 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1284 Views
I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1118 Views
Re: I believe she's dead - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1165 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 986 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1288 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1039 Views
Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1228 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1101 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1072 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1104 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1020 Views
Not really - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1118 Views
Re: Not really - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1172 Views
Re: Not really - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1105 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1068 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 593 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1134 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1035 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1163 Views
read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 872 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 984 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1059 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1197 Views
I don't see any flaws. - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1238 Views
But... - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 993 Views
Re: But... - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1132 Views
That is what I thought ... - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1030 Views
That still doesn't make sense. - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1222 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1256 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1106 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1031 Views
Nonsense. - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 971 Views
Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1147 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1133 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1023 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1075 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 898 Views
We don't know that, exactly - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 966 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1046 Views
Seriously? - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1072 Views
Maybe... - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1034 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 740 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 681 Views
Ok, in more detail: - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1149 Views
I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 888 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1066 Views
Thoughts - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 986 Views
But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1025 Views
Re: But that means she's dead - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1122 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 970 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1042 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1202 Views
Indeed... - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1218 Views
Re: Indeed... - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1036 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1057 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1040 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 856 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1069 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1176 Views
That's not fair - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1017 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 995 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 981 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1090 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1139 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 709 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1152 Views
Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 925 Views
Re: Not even comparable. - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1039 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 992 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1036 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1023 Views
And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 807 Views
Re: And, just to double post: - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1072 Views
Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1128 Views
Re: Nice answer. - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1061 Views
Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1165 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1066 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1069 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 926 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1106 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1050 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1090 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1133 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1096 Views
I disagree. - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1483 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1017 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1040 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1090 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1063 Views
I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1151 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1096 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1061 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1083 Views
Spot on. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 699 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1072 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 682 Views
Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1044 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1181 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 945 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1041 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1129 Views

Reply to Message