Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
Saying "Well, you can't prove your case" does not make a person right. As with all science, the burden of proof lies upon the person putting a new theory forward.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
3106 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
1837 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
1654 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
1752 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
3127 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
1692 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
1635 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
1409 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
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Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
1597 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
1354 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
999 Views
- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
1641 Views
I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
1470 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
1526 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
803 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
1635 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
1403 Views
Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
1582 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
1483 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
1362 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
1571 Views
read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
1195 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
1611 Views
But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
1456 Views
Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
1317 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
1501 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
1347 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
879 Views
Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
1512 Views
Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
1379 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
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I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
1421 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
1179 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
1482 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
1554 Views
That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
1394 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
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It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
939 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
1353 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
1469 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
1561 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
882 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
1362 Views
And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
1478 Views
Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
1445 Views
Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
1456 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
1426 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
1459 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
1528 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
1489 Views
I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
1820 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
727 Views
*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
727 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
1395 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
1416 Views
I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
1506 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
1458 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
1441 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
1432 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
1446 Views

*NM*