Kerb was completely unhelpful and mechanical when Rand was questioning him - and it was about this behavior that Rand was talking about. Kerb had no personality - he was completely replaced with whatever Graendal wanted him to be. Which is not the same as saying that he is an automaton, or a robot.
Kerb had initiative. He worked with the dungeons for several months - out of Graendal's direct command. He killed the messenger. He poisoned Millisair (though I understand it is your opinion that he was ordered by Graendal, of which I am debating
). He tried to escape when he suspected he would be caught by Nyneave. He apparently ate, went to the bathroom, and slept, and chose how to use and manage his time while he went about existing. His personality may have been destroyed, leaving him a shell following programing written by Graendal, but that programming obviously allowed for his brain to come up with creative solutions to problems he encountered and act on those solutions. From mundane things such as how to treat his coworkers, to (possibly) whether to kill the messenger. While it is possible that Graendal traveled to Bandar Eban to give him these orders, I find it very doubtful she would do so every single time.
I understand that you find it difficult to believe that Kerb could have chosen to poison Millisair or to kill the messenger. It just sounds like we have different opinions about what compulsion is and isn't able to do
. My personal opinion is that it is very possible that Kerb made those decisions on his own. Especially if his orders were "Hide among the staff in Bandar Eban, and discreetly eliminate anyone who may compromise my security. If you are suspected, reveal nothing."
I always conceived of compulsion similar to brainwashing - at which Graendal was the best. She was skilled enough to make her own "Manchurian Candidate" an assassin, so brainwashed that he couldn't control what he was doing, but who decisively used all of the creativity and judgment of the human mind to execute his objective(as a matter of fact, the more I recall about the film (the 1962 version, that is) the more similarities I see between Kerb and Raymond Shaw). RJ grew up during this era too, so it probably isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that some of those ideas about mind control and brainwashing made its way into his writing.
Regardless, I don't really think that this is a subject we can come to a conclusion on. Your opinion is that Kerb's compulsion couldn't have allowed him a very great degree of freedom, therefore, Graendal had to have been directly involved. My opinion is that Kerb's compulsion allowed him to make decisions, without Graendal's direct involvement, and his actions led Rand to Natrin's Barrow. The truth is, we don't really know that much about compulsion. We heard a few hazy stories - daughters convincing their fathers to accept bad boyfriends, Verin puzzling out her own version, and suspicious behavior by a few characters such as Noal.
*shrugs*
As it is, I can understand why you think the buildup to Graendal's death was odd - Kerb's behavior is odd, and defined by his compulsion. And we don't really understand how compulsion works.
Kerb had initiative. He worked with the dungeons for several months - out of Graendal's direct command. He killed the messenger. He poisoned Millisair (though I understand it is your opinion that he was ordered by Graendal, of which I am debating

I understand that you find it difficult to believe that Kerb could have chosen to poison Millisair or to kill the messenger. It just sounds like we have different opinions about what compulsion is and isn't able to do

I always conceived of compulsion similar to brainwashing - at which Graendal was the best. She was skilled enough to make her own "Manchurian Candidate" an assassin, so brainwashed that he couldn't control what he was doing, but who decisively used all of the creativity and judgment of the human mind to execute his objective(as a matter of fact, the more I recall about the film (the 1962 version, that is) the more similarities I see between Kerb and Raymond Shaw). RJ grew up during this era too, so it probably isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that some of those ideas about mind control and brainwashing made its way into his writing.
Regardless, I don't really think that this is a subject we can come to a conclusion on. Your opinion is that Kerb's compulsion couldn't have allowed him a very great degree of freedom, therefore, Graendal had to have been directly involved. My opinion is that Kerb's compulsion allowed him to make decisions, without Graendal's direct involvement, and his actions led Rand to Natrin's Barrow. The truth is, we don't really know that much about compulsion. We heard a few hazy stories - daughters convincing their fathers to accept bad boyfriends, Verin puzzling out her own version, and suspicious behavior by a few characters such as Noal.
*shrugs*
As it is, I can understand why you think the buildup to Graendal's death was odd - Kerb's behavior is odd, and defined by his compulsion. And we don't really understand how compulsion works.
"Take the Gleeman!" Rand and Mat cried, throwing Thom to the Myrddraal. Then they ran away as fast as they could, and Thom's screams quickly faded into the distance along with any inconvenient feelings of guilt.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
- 2720 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
- 1451 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
- 1247 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
- 1345 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
- 2737 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
- 1314 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
- 1254 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
- 1067 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
- 1067 Views
that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
- 1004 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
- 1104 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
- 1196 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
- 1024 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
- 1202 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
- 1264 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
- 1017 Views
26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
- 1203 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
- 1208 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
- 991 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
- 832 Views

He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
- 1169 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
- 1284 Views
I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
- 1119 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
- 1166 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
- 622 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
- 1288 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
- 1039 Views
Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
- 1229 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
- 1101 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
- 1072 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
- 1104 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
- 1020 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
- 1035 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
- 1163 Views
read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
- 872 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
- 985 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
- 1059 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
- 1197 Views
I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
- 1238 Views
But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
- 993 Views
Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
- 1133 Views
That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
- 1222 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
- 1256 Views

But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
- 1106 Views
Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
- 971 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
- 1147 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
- 1133 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
- 1023 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
- 1076 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion...
27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM
- 898 Views
We don't know that, exactly
27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM
- 967 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
- 741 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
- 682 Views
Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
- 1149 Views
Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
- 987 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
- 971 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
- 1042 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
- 1202 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
- 1057 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
- 856 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
- 1069 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
- 1176 Views
That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
- 1017 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
- 996 Views

Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
- 637 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
- 767 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
- 982 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
- 1090 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
- 1139 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
- 1171 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
- 709 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
- 1153 Views
Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
- 925 Views
Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
- 1039 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
- 992 Views
And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
- 807 Views
Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
- 1072 Views
Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
- 1128 Views
Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
- 1061 Views
Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
- 1165 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
- 1066 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
- 1069 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
- 926 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
- 1106 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
- 1050 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
- 1090 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
- 1134 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
- 1096 Views
I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
- 1483 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
- 566 Views

You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
- 1018 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
- 1041 Views
I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
- 1151 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
- 1096 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
- 1061 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
- 1072 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
- 682 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
- 1042 Views