Kerb was completely unhelpful and mechanical when Rand was questioning him - and it was about this behavior that Rand was talking about. Kerb had no personality - he was completely replaced with whatever Graendal wanted him to be. Which is not the same as saying that he is an automaton, or a robot.
Kerb had initiative. He worked with the dungeons for several months - out of Graendal's direct command. He killed the messenger. He poisoned Millisair (though I understand it is your opinion that he was ordered by Graendal, of which I am debating
). He tried to escape when he suspected he would be caught by Nyneave. He apparently ate, went to the bathroom, and slept, and chose how to use and manage his time while he went about existing. His personality may have been destroyed, leaving him a shell following programing written by Graendal, but that programming obviously allowed for his brain to come up with creative solutions to problems he encountered and act on those solutions. From mundane things such as how to treat his coworkers, to (possibly) whether to kill the messenger. While it is possible that Graendal traveled to Bandar Eban to give him these orders, I find it very doubtful she would do so every single time.
I understand that you find it difficult to believe that Kerb could have chosen to poison Millisair or to kill the messenger. It just sounds like we have different opinions about what compulsion is and isn't able to do
. My personal opinion is that it is very possible that Kerb made those decisions on his own. Especially if his orders were "Hide among the staff in Bandar Eban, and discreetly eliminate anyone who may compromise my security. If you are suspected, reveal nothing."
I always conceived of compulsion similar to brainwashing - at which Graendal was the best. She was skilled enough to make her own "Manchurian Candidate" an assassin, so brainwashed that he couldn't control what he was doing, but who decisively used all of the creativity and judgment of the human mind to execute his objective(as a matter of fact, the more I recall about the film (the 1962 version, that is) the more similarities I see between Kerb and Raymond Shaw). RJ grew up during this era too, so it probably isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that some of those ideas about mind control and brainwashing made its way into his writing.
Regardless, I don't really think that this is a subject we can come to a conclusion on. Your opinion is that Kerb's compulsion couldn't have allowed him a very great degree of freedom, therefore, Graendal had to have been directly involved. My opinion is that Kerb's compulsion allowed him to make decisions, without Graendal's direct involvement, and his actions led Rand to Natrin's Barrow. The truth is, we don't really know that much about compulsion. We heard a few hazy stories - daughters convincing their fathers to accept bad boyfriends, Verin puzzling out her own version, and suspicious behavior by a few characters such as Noal.
*shrugs*
As it is, I can understand why you think the buildup to Graendal's death was odd - Kerb's behavior is odd, and defined by his compulsion. And we don't really understand how compulsion works.
Kerb had initiative. He worked with the dungeons for several months - out of Graendal's direct command. He killed the messenger. He poisoned Millisair (though I understand it is your opinion that he was ordered by Graendal, of which I am debating

I understand that you find it difficult to believe that Kerb could have chosen to poison Millisair or to kill the messenger. It just sounds like we have different opinions about what compulsion is and isn't able to do

I always conceived of compulsion similar to brainwashing - at which Graendal was the best. She was skilled enough to make her own "Manchurian Candidate" an assassin, so brainwashed that he couldn't control what he was doing, but who decisively used all of the creativity and judgment of the human mind to execute his objective(as a matter of fact, the more I recall about the film (the 1962 version, that is) the more similarities I see between Kerb and Raymond Shaw). RJ grew up during this era too, so it probably isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that some of those ideas about mind control and brainwashing made its way into his writing.
Regardless, I don't really think that this is a subject we can come to a conclusion on. Your opinion is that Kerb's compulsion couldn't have allowed him a very great degree of freedom, therefore, Graendal had to have been directly involved. My opinion is that Kerb's compulsion allowed him to make decisions, without Graendal's direct involvement, and his actions led Rand to Natrin's Barrow. The truth is, we don't really know that much about compulsion. We heard a few hazy stories - daughters convincing their fathers to accept bad boyfriends, Verin puzzling out her own version, and suspicious behavior by a few characters such as Noal.
*shrugs*
As it is, I can understand why you think the buildup to Graendal's death was odd - Kerb's behavior is odd, and defined by his compulsion. And we don't really understand how compulsion works.
"Take the Gleeman!" Rand and Mat cried, throwing Thom to the Myrddraal. Then they ran away as fast as they could, and Thom's screams quickly faded into the distance along with any inconvenient feelings of guilt.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
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I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
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The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
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After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
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I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
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I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
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well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
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Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
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Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
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I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
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26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
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I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
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Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
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Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
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The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
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Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
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Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
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But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
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Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
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no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
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read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
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LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
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But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
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Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
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Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
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Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
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I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion...
27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM
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We don't know that, exactly
27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
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Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
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By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
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I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
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That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
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I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
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It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
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I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
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But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
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So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
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Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
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And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
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Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
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That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
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Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
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Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
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Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
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I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
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I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
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You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
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I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
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Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
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Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
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I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
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Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
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