To put it simply, the messenger was a very visible pawn of Graendal's. Graendal of all people knows that's it's very hard to completely erase something from the human mind, especially a location like Natrin's Barrow where that mind was subjected to the shock of Compulsion. There's always the chance that people might have some memory of the location, and that if Rand comes searching for her, he will look firstly at high-profile Domani messengers since LTT knows that's how Graendal would operate.
To counter this, she used a much more subtly-positioned servant working in a prison (Kerb). Rand would not have gone looking for him (and indeed, he didn't - Nynaeve did that). Furthermore, it seems like a lucky coincidence that Nynaeve caught Kerb out - had Rand gone there, he would have failed to sense the saidar-compulsion.
Regardless, I do tend to agree that this plot mechanism for finding Graendal was a bit weak and "lucky" for the Light, but I still don't find it to be a "major logical flaw", let alone implausible.
For all we know, the messenger had other orders, perhaps including one to return to Graendal's lair (even if she couldn't vocally reveal its location), and had to be killed for that reason.
So in summation, Graendal is dead and I don't have a hard time believing any of the events that lead up to it. It might not have been the most imaginative writing, but it was decent enough and the payoff at Natrin's Barrow was worth it.
To counter this, she used a much more subtly-positioned servant working in a prison (Kerb). Rand would not have gone looking for him (and indeed, he didn't - Nynaeve did that). Furthermore, it seems like a lucky coincidence that Nynaeve caught Kerb out - had Rand gone there, he would have failed to sense the saidar-compulsion.
Regardless, I do tend to agree that this plot mechanism for finding Graendal was a bit weak and "lucky" for the Light, but I still don't find it to be a "major logical flaw", let alone implausible.
For all we know, the messenger had other orders, perhaps including one to return to Graendal's lair (even if she couldn't vocally reveal its location), and had to be killed for that reason.
So in summation, Graendal is dead and I don't have a hard time believing any of the events that lead up to it. It might not have been the most imaginative writing, but it was decent enough and the payoff at Natrin's Barrow was worth it.
I can see why the messenger had to be offed. I can also see why Graendal sent someone she had compelled to do it.
All this is sensible and credible. What is not is that Kerb stays back. And not only does he stay back, he poisons Rand's prisoner!
Two questions come up:
1)Why would Graendal order Millisair poisoned? What benefit does this give her? None. How does it inconvenience Rand? It doesn't.
In fact, it serves no purpose at all, except to draw attention to Kerb. Because if he had gone on and succeeded, Rand (and Nynaeve) would have been told Millisair is dead. Most assuredly, someone would have investigated, and the poison would have been detected, and Kerb would have been suspected.
Even if one were to make the (specious) argument that Graendal hoped Millisair's death would go unnoticed, one is still left wondering why she wanted her dead in the first place, and took such risks to kill her.
2)Why, if Millisair had to be killed did Graendal not simply compel someone already in Bandar Eban? (I contend that is indeed what happened, and Kerb was not some previously installed mole, as others claim). Why use someone who has come to Natrin's Barrow, when she can disguise herself, hide her ability, Travel to Bandar Eban, and compel someone to do what she wants? That, for someone as careful as Graendal, is simply unacceptable. Unless she were laying a trap, and spoke the name to Kerb so he would tell Rand.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
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I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
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The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
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After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
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I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
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I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
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well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
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Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
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Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
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I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
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26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
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I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
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Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
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Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
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The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
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Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
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Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
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But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
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Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
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no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
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read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
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LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
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But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
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Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
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Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
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Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
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I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
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Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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I'm tired of making this point...
26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM
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Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
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By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
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I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
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That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
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I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
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It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
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I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
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But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
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So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
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Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
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And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
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Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
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That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
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Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
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Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
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Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
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I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
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I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
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You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
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I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
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Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
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Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
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I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
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Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
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