To put it simply, the messenger was a very visible pawn of Graendal's. Graendal of all people knows that's it's very hard to completely erase something from the human mind, especially a location like Natrin's Barrow where that mind was subjected to the shock of Compulsion. There's always the chance that people might have some memory of the location, and that if Rand comes searching for her, he will look firstly at high-profile Domani messengers since LTT knows that's how Graendal would operate.
To counter this, she used a much more subtly-positioned servant working in a prison (Kerb). Rand would not have gone looking for him (and indeed, he didn't - Nynaeve did that). Furthermore, it seems like a lucky coincidence that Nynaeve caught Kerb out - had Rand gone there, he would have failed to sense the saidar-compulsion.
Regardless, I do tend to agree that this plot mechanism for finding Graendal was a bit weak and "lucky" for the Light, but I still don't find it to be a "major logical flaw", let alone implausible.
For all we know, the messenger had other orders, perhaps including one to return to Graendal's lair (even if she couldn't vocally reveal its location), and had to be killed for that reason.
So in summation, Graendal is dead and I don't have a hard time believing any of the events that lead up to it. It might not have been the most imaginative writing, but it was decent enough and the payoff at Natrin's Barrow was worth it.
To counter this, she used a much more subtly-positioned servant working in a prison (Kerb). Rand would not have gone looking for him (and indeed, he didn't - Nynaeve did that). Furthermore, it seems like a lucky coincidence that Nynaeve caught Kerb out - had Rand gone there, he would have failed to sense the saidar-compulsion.
Regardless, I do tend to agree that this plot mechanism for finding Graendal was a bit weak and "lucky" for the Light, but I still don't find it to be a "major logical flaw", let alone implausible.
For all we know, the messenger had other orders, perhaps including one to return to Graendal's lair (even if she couldn't vocally reveal its location), and had to be killed for that reason.
So in summation, Graendal is dead and I don't have a hard time believing any of the events that lead up to it. It might not have been the most imaginative writing, but it was decent enough and the payoff at Natrin's Barrow was worth it.
I can see why the messenger had to be offed. I can also see why Graendal sent someone she had compelled to do it.
All this is sensible and credible. What is not is that Kerb stays back. And not only does he stay back, he poisons Rand's prisoner!
Two questions come up:
1)Why would Graendal order Millisair poisoned? What benefit does this give her? None. How does it inconvenience Rand? It doesn't.
In fact, it serves no purpose at all, except to draw attention to Kerb. Because if he had gone on and succeeded, Rand (and Nynaeve) would have been told Millisair is dead. Most assuredly, someone would have investigated, and the poison would have been detected, and Kerb would have been suspected.
Even if one were to make the (specious) argument that Graendal hoped Millisair's death would go unnoticed, one is still left wondering why she wanted her dead in the first place, and took such risks to kill her.
2)Why, if Millisair had to be killed did Graendal not simply compel someone already in Bandar Eban? (I contend that is indeed what happened, and Kerb was not some previously installed mole, as others claim). Why use someone who has come to Natrin's Barrow, when she can disguise herself, hide her ability, Travel to Bandar Eban, and compel someone to do what she wants? That, for someone as careful as Graendal, is simply unacceptable. Unless she were laying a trap, and spoke the name to Kerb so he would tell Rand.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
- 2702 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
- 1400 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
- 1201 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
- 1288 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
- 2681 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
- 1258 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
- 1200 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
- 1003 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
- 1008 Views
that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
- 948 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
- 1042 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
- 1147 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
- 974 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
- 1147 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
- 1187 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
- 961 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
- 1147 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
- 938 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
- 800 Views
26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
- 1146 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
- 1115 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
- 1225 Views
I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
- 1068 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
- 1105 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
- 600 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
- 1238 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
- 977 Views
Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
- 1178 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
- 1071 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
- 1014 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
- 1054 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
- 967 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
- 968 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
- 1108 Views
read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
- 820 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
- 942 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
- 1003 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
- 1171 Views
I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
- 1191 Views
But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
- 939 Views
Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
- 1073 Views
That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
- 1162 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
- 1194 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
- 1054 Views
Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
- 915 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
- 1094 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
- 1083 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
- 972 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
- 1017 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
- 717 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
- 651 Views
Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
- 1099 Views
I'm tired of making this point...
26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM
- 839 Views
Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
- 932 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
- 916 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
- 1018 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
- 1140 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
- 1011 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
- 803 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
- 1018 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
- 1113 Views
That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
- 968 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part .
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
- 946 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
- 610 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
- 747 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
- 925 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
- 1036 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
- 1078 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
- 1109 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
- 688 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
- 1095 Views
Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
- 872 Views
Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
- 993 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
- 937 Views
And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
- 749 Views
Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
- 1018 Views
Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
- 1075 Views
Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
- 1008 Views
Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
- 1102 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
- 1026 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
- 1014 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
- 863 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
- 1054 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
- 1001 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
- 1027 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
- 1083 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
- 1047 Views
I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
- 1425 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
- 543 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
- 974 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
- 987 Views
I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
- 1094 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
- 1015 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
- 1012 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
- 1021 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
- 660 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
- 991 Views