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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
The arguments for her death aren't convincing. They all seem to rely on the magnitude of the balefire stream as evidence that she could not have escaped it and the vanishing of her Compulsion as evidence that she was erased from existence. Neither of these present air-tight support for this conclusion.


Reversal of Compulsion is pretty airtight. The Compulsion disappeared at that exact moment. From what we know of channeling, the only possibility was that Graendal was balefired. The only possibility to escape this was that Graendal was not the one who compelled him - but she already told Sammael she would not teach Compulsion to anyone.


that's a pretty big stretch to "would not teach Compulsion to anyone"


"If you think I will teach them Compulsion, erase it from your mind."

Not a big stretch at all, actually.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2692 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1386 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1183 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1276 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1283 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1084 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1244 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1208 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2670 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1444 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1239 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1187 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 986 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 991 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 936 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1229 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1093 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1137 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1034 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1132 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 961 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1135 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1133 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1069 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1174 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 952 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1133 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 922 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 795 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1134 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1105 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 995 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1103 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1101 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1080 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1210 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1054 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1092 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 917 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 591 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1222 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 956 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1163 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1050 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1001 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1045 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 955 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1065 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1103 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1038 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1035 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 566 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1068 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 951 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1088 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 809 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 929 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 990 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1156 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1174 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 924 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1058 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 970 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1147 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1179 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1043 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 971 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 900 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1073 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1059 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 962 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1007 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 831 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 894 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 975 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1004 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 954 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 706 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 641 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1083 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 823 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1002 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 916 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 983 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1061 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 903 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1000 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1130 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1149 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 968 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 995 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 975 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 788 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1004 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1094 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 951 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 926 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 603 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 739 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 910 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1024 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1057 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1090 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 680 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1077 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 858 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 973 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 923 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 970 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 953 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 738 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1004 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1058 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 991 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1089 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1012 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 997 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 845 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1040 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 985 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1015 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1072 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1032 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1410 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 533 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 960 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 972 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1029 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 997 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1078 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 998 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 993 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1010 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 669 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1009 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 650 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 982 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1110 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 865 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 981 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1068 Views
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