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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
The arguments for her death aren't convincing. They all seem to rely on the magnitude of the balefire stream as evidence that she could not have escaped it and the vanishing of her Compulsion as evidence that she was erased from existence. Neither of these present air-tight support for this conclusion.


Reversal of Compulsion is pretty airtight. The Compulsion disappeared at that exact moment. From what we know of channeling, the only possibility was that Graendal was balefired. The only possibility to escape this was that Graendal was not the one who compelled him - but she already told Sammael she would not teach Compulsion to anyone.


that's a pretty big stretch to "would not teach Compulsion to anyone"


"If you think I will teach them Compulsion, erase it from your mind."

Not a big stretch at all, actually.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM 2750 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM 1481 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap. fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM 1280 Views
After reading 12 WoT books... Etzel - 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM 1380 Views
You also ignored... randfandom - 25/01/2010 08:15:34 PM 1392 Views
and of course, the obvious theme Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:02:56 PM 1200 Views
Bah! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:49:33 PM 1347 Views
It's possible that this was mainly written by BS Etzel - 26/01/2010 12:03:03 PM 1312 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ... amirebram - 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM 2772 Views
I agree that the set up for her death was rather lame darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:14:07 PM 1548 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM 1340 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Underwood - 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM 1276 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM 1098 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing? beetnemesis - 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM 1100 Views
that's kind of my whole point darius_sedai - 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM 1028 Views
Uh, not actually at all really Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:07:52 PM 1331 Views
*shudders* Yondaime - 26/01/2010 02:27:35 AM 1199 Views
*shrugs* darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:47:21 AM 1232 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM 1138 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM 1214 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once? Rurouni_Kenshin - 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM 1059 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible? Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM 1222 Views
why would Graendal do that anyway? Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:26:38 AM 1232 Views
Re: why would Graendal do that anyway? Rurouni_Kenshin - 03/02/2010 02:52:32 AM 1175 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM 1292 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM 1045 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM 1247 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM 1026 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM* Gher - 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM 850 Views
Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM 1228 Views
Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:35:19 PM 1217 Views
Re: Didn't Balthamel and Aginor leave corpses? Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:06:01 PM 1095 Views
Re: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:44:06 PM 1204 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM 1200 Views
Me, Too. The Name With No Man - 28/01/2010 08:00:09 PM 1197 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead. Sidious - 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM 1313 Views
I believe she's dead Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM 1149 Views
Re: I believe she's dead Sidious - 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM 1194 Views
I don't think she would have taught anyone Sareitha Sedai - 25/01/2010 09:18:03 PM 1017 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM* Shannow - 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM 638 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM 1321 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene! Underwood - 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM 1071 Views
Stop passing judgments... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM 1259 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched Sidious - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM 1131 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM 1108 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM 1138 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM 1042 Views
Not really Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:35:06 PM 1154 Views
Re: Not really fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:45:20 PM 1222 Views
Re: Not really Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:27:17 PM 1139 Views
Re: Stop passing judgments... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 04:40:37 PM 1103 Views
*NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/01/2010 05:00:10 PM 605 Views
Everyone can see residues- only a select few can "read" them beetnemesis - 26/01/2010 07:42:19 AM 1156 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM 1069 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place Sidious - 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM 1196 Views
read the whole quote darius_sedai - 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM 894 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM 1007 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM 1085 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together. Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM 1225 Views
I don't see any flaws. Skeeve the Great - 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM 1260 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM 1014 Views
Re: But... Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM 1152 Views
That is what I thought ... Yondaime - 26/01/2010 01:24:18 AM 1069 Views
That still doesn't make sense. fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM 1246 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense. Yondaime - 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM 1282 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM 1131 Views
Re: But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy! Yondaime - 26/01/2010 04:12:41 AM 1062 Views
Nonsense. Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM 1000 Views
Dude, read what I said please... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM 1183 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM 1167 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself darius_sedai - 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM 1051 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot Yondaime - 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM 1106 Views
Nynaeve and Elayne were under a weaker compulsion... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:52 AM 925 Views
We don't know that, exactly Yondaime - 27/01/2010 03:50:44 AM 997 Views
If you cannot provide an answer... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:10:40 AM 1075 Views
Seriously? Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 03:55:57 AM 1099 Views
Maybe... Etzel - 27/01/2010 11:08:10 AM 1061 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM* Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM 753 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM* fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM 693 Views
Ok, in more detail: Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM 1175 Views
I'm tired of making this point... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 08:39:22 PM 920 Views
Re: I'm tired of making this point... Syraelle - 26/01/2010 08:44:51 PM 1100 Views
Thoughts Heiko - 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM 1015 Views
But that means she's dead Skeeve the Great - 26/01/2010 01:20:19 AM 1057 Views
Re: But that means she's dead Heiko - 26/01/2010 05:31:25 AM 1153 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something. Lord Haart - 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM 993 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something. Syraelle - 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM 1065 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM 1230 Views
Indeed... Etzel - 26/01/2010 05:13:53 PM 1239 Views
Re: Indeed... Sidious - 26/01/2010 07:04:40 PM 1060 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM 1079 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Underwood - 26/01/2010 07:58:41 PM 1074 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM 884 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM 1092 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM 1202 Views
That's not fair Yondaime - 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM 1040 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part . Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM 1017 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM* Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM 648 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM 780 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM 1015 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM 1123 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM 1188 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal. Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM 1209 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM 720 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM 1187 Views
Not even comparable. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM 949 Views
Re: Not even comparable. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM 1060 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM 1015 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:49:43 PM 1064 Views
Re: Could you please take the effort to read my posts? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:40:43 PM 1047 Views
And, just to double post: Fanatic-Templar - 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM 832 Views
Re: And, just to double post: RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM 1107 Views
Nice answer. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM 1158 Views
Re: Nice answer. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM 1087 Views
Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM 1197 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM 1085 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM 1100 Views
Re: Hilarious. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM 951 Views
Re: Hilarious. Fanatic-Templar - 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM 1134 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM 1084 Views
Moridin's main directive was.. Etzel - 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM 1118 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was.. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM 1159 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished... Etzel - 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM 1124 Views
I disagree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM 1510 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM* Etzel - 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM 582 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever? Fanatic-Templar - 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM 1043 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM 1066 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... fionwe1987 - 27/01/2010 03:26:56 AM 1118 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but... Skeeve the Great - 27/01/2010 05:35:39 AM 1092 Views
I don't see a flaw rAndy aL - 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM 1177 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw Underwood - 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM 1124 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims. Lord Haart - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM 1089 Views
Let's give you one logic path for Millisair being poisoned. TheUltimateReality - 27/01/2010 05:47:04 PM 1115 Views
Spot on. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:09:26 AM 712 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans DomA - 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM 1095 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM* Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM 693 Views
Compulsion is limited Sidious - 28/01/2010 04:30:24 PM 1075 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited Lord Haart - 28/01/2010 06:35:05 PM 1206 Views
Re: Compulsion is limited DomA - 28/01/2010 08:26:37 PM 982 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story. taura-tierno - 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM 1077 Views
There's really no further purpose for her character. Libby - 09/02/2010 10:52:58 PM 1159 Views
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