But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
Sidious Send a noteboard - 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
Why do you want Graendal to be alive so badly? If you read the "damned scene", it's clear, crystal clear, that Graendal is dead. I don't mean to be rude, here, but it just seems like... well, it seems some kind of desperate attempt to get a second chance for a character you wanted to be more impressive. Not only is the evidence in the book clear, but outside the book, there's really no narrative time for a reveal of the character to be alive, then be fought and killed again.
I just would like to see someone who believes she's alive give some evidence as to why they think so. I do mean evidence that isn't trying to find holes in the plot to explain how she could possibly, maybe, if numerous unmentioned-in-the-book pre-requisites are met, she could concievably be alive. Is there any evidence that anyone has that she's actually alive?
I apologize, because this sounds harsh, I know, it's just bewildering to me.
I don't want her to be alive. I suspect that she is, because her death has been written ambiguously and there's way to many plot holes related to her death.
And how can I give conclusive evidence that she is alive? The whole point is that her "death" was off screen. No one can conclusively prove that she is alive or dead.
Of course no one can conclusively say it, especially because the author admitted that he wanted to torment us with the answer for another year. But having her weaves disappear after the act is a strong pointer! The Compulsion vanished instantly - it doesn't matter if Nynaeve was being stubborn about delving the man.
I think you're losing the plot a bit here, Fionwe. It does seem like you're desperate to keep this character alive, and you're coming up with all sorts of theories to explain this. It's a huge assumption to say that Aran'gar was in the palace at the time despite Graendal saying in the prologue that only Moridin knows how to find her. Or worse, that she would Travel towards Rand while he was wielding the choedan kal to unravel her Compulsion. It's madness.
I think you're letting your bias show in these replies. You've stated that you think her death was lame, so it seems you're trying to keep this talented villain alive. I don't understand why you think her demise was such a let down. Rand used the world's most powerful sa'angreal to blow her up. It was surely among the most amazing displays in the series - and makes some of the other forsaken deaths look laughable. Her death was monumental.
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Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
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I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
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The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
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After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
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I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
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I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
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well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
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Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
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Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
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I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
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26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
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I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
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Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
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Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
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The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
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Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
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Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
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But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
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Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
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no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
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read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
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LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
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But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
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Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
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Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
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Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
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I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
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Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
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By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
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I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
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That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
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I agree about the 'awesome' part
.
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
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It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
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I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
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But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
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So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
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Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
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And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
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Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
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That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
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Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
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Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
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Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
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I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
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I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display.
*NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
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You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
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I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
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Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
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Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
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I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
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Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
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