well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
The arguments for her death aren't convincing. They all seem to rely on the magnitude of the balefire stream as evidence that she could not have escaped it and the vanishing of her Compulsion as evidence that she was erased from existence. Neither of these present air-tight support for this conclusion.
That may be, though I think it's crystal clear that she's dead, and I can't understand why people would think otherwise, other than the wish/hope that maybe this Forsaken isn't totally over-rated.
Do you have any argument for her being alive that doesn't start from the position of "I don't want her to be dead, so let's look for loopholes in how she could have gotten out of it?"
Another question I have is there any evidence, any at all, after Rand believes that he killed Graendal, that she is alive?
Who the Allied powers scorned to look for after the end of WWII because they were convinced he was dead ... then he turned up in Argentina 25 years later. Not that this is any kind of evidence, but I find it interesting that she's killed off in such a way that we can question it. Much like Sammael who's death was questioned until RJ finally told us outright that he was "toast".
I'm on the fence with her death. BSand left the door open IMO so there will be theories until we either see it live in ToM or BSand tells us she's toast.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
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I think Graendal's death was a great scene
- 25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
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The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
- 25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
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After reading 12 WoT books...
- 25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
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I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
- 26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
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I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
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well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
- 25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
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Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
- 25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
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that's kind of my whole point
- 25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
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None of those "easy explanations" could work
- 26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
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my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
- 26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
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Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
- 26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
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Do we have evidence that this is possible?
- 26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
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I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
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- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
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Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
- 26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
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Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
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- 26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
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He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
- 26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
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Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
- 25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
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I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
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Re: I believe she's dead
- 25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
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Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
- 26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
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The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
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Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
- 26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
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Stop passing judgments...
- 26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
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But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
- 26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
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I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
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Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
- 26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
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Dude, then you derailed the thread...
- 26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
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*NM*
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
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Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
- 26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
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read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
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LOL! You read the whole quote
- 26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
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the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
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Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
- 28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
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I don't see any flaws.
- 25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
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But...
- 25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
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Re: But...
- 26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
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That still doesn't make sense.
- 26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
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But, having a clean up guy does make sense. 
- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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- 26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
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But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
- 26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
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Nonsense.
- 26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
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Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
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Re: Dude, read what I said please...
- 26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
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Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
- 27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
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I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
- 27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
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Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
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Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
- 26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
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Ok, in more detail:
- 26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
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Thoughts
- 26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
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Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
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Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
- 26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
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By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
- 26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
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I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
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That's not fair
- 27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
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I agree about the 'awesome' part 
.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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.
- 27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
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Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
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It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
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I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
- 27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
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But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
- 27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
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So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
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Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
- 28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
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Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
- 27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
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Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
- 28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
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Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
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Re: Not even comparable.
- 28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
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Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
- 28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
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And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
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Re: And, just to double post:
- 27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
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Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
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Re: Nice answer.
- 28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
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Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
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Re: Hilarious.
- 28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
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That's because you didn't look at other posts.
- 29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
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Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
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Re: Moridin's main directive was..
- 29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
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Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
- 29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
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I disagree.
- 29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
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I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
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*NM*
- 29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
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You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
- 29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
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Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
- 27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
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I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
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Re: I don't see a flaw
- 27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
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Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
- 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
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I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
- 27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
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Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
- 28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
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Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
- 27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
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