Active Users:132 Time:16/04/2025 02:08:17 AM
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM
That it doesn't kill the "Graendal was there"-theory, all the quotes rather indicate that truly just SH and Elza were involved - as it seems to be the case in the book - because only these two characters are mentioned regarding the scene. It seems especially unlikely that the Compulsion expert Graendal was apparently needed to find out that Elza was under Compulsion and to teach her the necessary weaves, but that Graendal wouldn't remove the Compulsion then or simply take the DM herself (after probably checking what weaves would actually be needed for Elza to open the box ). It's even said that Elza was "essential" for SH for getting things done (since SH is limited in affecting the physical world), though one wonders why SH couldn't use Graendal, if she was anyway already involved.

If Graendal saw Elza in TAR, taught her some weaves to undo the wards and noticed she was compelled, there wasn't much she could do there. The compulsion would be real world, and as such not removable in TAR.

And as for why Brandon doesn't hint at the presence of someone else... that is obvious. He doesn't want to spoil the surprise.

My reason for suspecting Granedal is that this whole scene was very psychological. Several things were necessary:

1) Semirhage would try to torture Rand. I think Granedal's comments on Semirhage's cold, one track mind in the prologue suggests that she would have foreseen this.

2) Rand would not respond to the torture, so Semi would have to turn to Min. This in turn would remind Rand forcefully of Ilyna, and this would drive him to seek the TP.

The 2nd point is what cinches it for me. Graendal has studied people with voices in their head. It is possible that she knew what Rand's being in contact with LTT meant, and thus engineered this to give him pain of heart as commanded.

The plan seems to cerebral and psychological to be Moridin's. Too indirect, playing too much on the emotions of the characters involved. That's the signature of Graendal.

Further, the only thing her prologue showed us was that she knew Semi was captured (and that Moridin was so pissed he was ready to sacrifice her) and that she was ordered to mentally torture Rand.

Both these facts were critical in a crime that depended on the psychology of the victim. Not seeing some involvement from Graendal in this seems absurd to me.
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Elza's Compulsion - 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM 1947 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story - 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM 891 Views
I disagree - 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM 734 Views
except work with Semirhage! - 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM 674 Views
Well... - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 741 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM* - 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM 265 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM* - 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM 241 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote - 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM 579 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM* - 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM 216 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes - 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM 512 Views
The question is... - 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM 531 Views
Re: The question is... - 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM 519 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM* - 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM 559 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that - 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM 524 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though - 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM 546 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently? - 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM 517 Views
Shaidar Haran can't channel. - 14/01/2010 09:34:51 PM 878 Views
I know... - 14/01/2010 09:45:15 PM 738 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ... - 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM 819 Views
That doesn't prove anything... - 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM 763 Views
It proves enough for me ... - 14/01/2010 10:26:28 PM 648 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything... - 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM 489 Views
not really - 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM 510 Views
I don't understand your theory - 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM 500 Views
It's very simple - 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM 491 Views
So in other words - 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM 607 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct - 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM 511 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct - 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM 536 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head - 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM 537 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer - 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM 529 Views
But... - 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM 517 Views
Exactly my point - 18/01/2010 06:24:25 PM 553 Views
But by this logic... - 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM 490 Views
Yes... - 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM 550 Views
While you are right... - 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM 537 Views
as we've discussed in another thread - 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM 913 Views
I mean... - 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM 532 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL? - 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM 553 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote. - 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM 493 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM* - 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM 239 Views
Maybe secret BA weaves... - 19/01/2010 06:37:42 PM 739 Views
Possible since she was the only BA in the area - 19/01/2010 06:40:38 PM 773 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM 576 Views
I have a hard time... - 19/01/2010 02:17:52 PM 589 Views
I agree with you - 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM 511 Views
and you may very well be correct - 19/01/2010 05:39:02 PM 730 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later - 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM 597 Views
Anything is possible ... - 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM 603 Views
who knows - 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM 574 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ... - 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM 481 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end - 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM 659 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end - 15/01/2010 06:25:32 PM 542 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end - 15/01/2010 06:44:26 PM 510 Views
Good point! - 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM 593 Views
Re: Good point! - 15/01/2010 05:30:12 PM 487 Views
I agree - 16/01/2010 09:50:09 AM 484 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me - 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM 556 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me - 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM 553 Views
damn double posting - 15/01/2010 07:04:56 PM 495 Views
As it is often the case... - 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM 592 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please. - 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM 548 Views
Well... - 16/01/2010 04:14:28 PM 439 Views
as I said it's also possible that SH has new abilities - 16/01/2010 04:33:30 PM 483 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story - 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM 588 Views
Uhhh? - 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM 730 Views
One point - 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM 684 Views
Re: One point - 14/01/2010 09:32:00 PM 602 Views
Elza truly believes that... - 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM 599 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion" - 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM 649 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed. - 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM 578 Views
fair enough - 16/01/2010 04:34:05 PM 635 Views
Not quite - 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM 624 Views

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