First, let's all agree that Mesaana is still in the White Tower. Actually, for those who don't know, Sanderson confirmed this in a Q&A:
Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?
A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.
And, let's agree that she is posing as an AS (I know this is a debatable point, but we need to assume she is for this discussion to have any meaning).
Sanderson also stated the following, about AS in the White Tower:
Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths.
Note: BS says that all remaing WT AS retook ALL 3 OATHS, so either Mesaana is currently bound by all 3, or by none. More on this below.
So, let's agree that this statement includes Mesaana, so that Mesaana at least appeared to retake the 3 Oaths during the process in which all the remaining WT AS retook them.
The question I want to address is ... is Mesaana bound by the 3 Oaths?
Now, I've seen it suggested that Mesaana IS bound by the 3 Oaths, and that she was able to answer "Are you a darkfriend" with "No", because she doesn't consider herself to be a lowly DF, she considers herself to be a Chosen, which she truly views as a legitmate distinction.
Sanderson also has said some things on this particular issue:
Q: Do the Forsaken consider themselves Darkfriends?
A: Oooh, you are tricky! I know what you’re doing. [For those that don't, this guy is trying to figure out if this is how Mesaana beat the Oath Rod. - Terez] I would say that, in general, yes they do consider themselves Darkfriends, though there are ways somebody would be able to get around that. I would say, yes, that that is not the sort of mental gymnastics that…it is very easy to convince yourself that you are not a Darkfriend.
Q: [Messana] could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?
A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.
However, based on the bolded part of BS's answer above, even if Mesaana could have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath (which BS says may have been possible), I don't think that is what happened.
The key here is, BS says that there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod, and (as I interpret his response) that we should focus on that issue, with respect to the Mesaana question, not on the issue of whether she could simply have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath.
Which I take to mean ... Mesaana is not currently bound by ANY of the 3 Oaths. This makes sense, actually, because regardless of the do-not-lie Oath and whether she could have answered "No" to the DF question, Mesaana would never have let herself be bound not to use the OP as a weapon.
Therefore, as I see it, there are 2 possibilites:
1) The 3 Oaths "activated" when Mesaana swore them, but she knew a way to deactivate them, and did so before she answered the question about being a DF.
2) The 3 Oaths never activated when Mesaana swore them. She knew a way to keep the Oaths from activating.
And my guess is, 2) is almost certainly the correct answer. If 1) were possible, Binders/Oath Rods would have been useless in the AoL - criminal channelers (like, say, Semirhage) could have sworn any Oath they were forced to swear, and then deactivate it/them anytime thereafter, unbeknownst to anyone else.
Whereas with 2), the AoL AS who were putting the Binder on a criminal channeler could (and certainly would) ensure that the criminal wasn't trying any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod during the process, to ensure that the Oaths actually activated. Whereas, the 3rd Age AS don't know about any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod, so they don't know to look for one, and Mesaana could get away with it.
So the question is, what sort of trick did Mesaana use to prevent the Oaths from activating?
I saw this discussed very briefly in another post, and in that post someone (LitN, I think) suggested that Mesaana put some sort of Keeper weave around herself, which prevented the Oaths from activating on her (the idea being that nothing external can pass through a Keeper weave to affect whatever is behind it).
This is an interesting idea - Mesaana could have inverted the Keeper weave, so that no one knew it was there. So this could be the answer (or something similar to this - some sort of invisible "shield weave" that prevented the Oaths from activating).
But, we don't know for sure that a Keeper or any other type of shield-weave would actually prevent the Oaths from activating. It's just speculation
Another possibility I was thinking of is ... I'm pretty sure we know for certain that a Binder only works on channelers. So, maybe Mesaana knows and utilized a weave that essentially made herself a non-channeler during the time she took the Oaths, so that nothing actually happened when she took them. We know the Forsaken know of tricks that make themselves appear to be non-channelers (e.g. Lanfear must have done so when she masqueraded as Keile Shaogi), so maybe this idea isn't too much of a stretch.
In this case, we know the idea would work if such a weave is possible, since we know Binders only work on channelers.
Anyone else have any ideas on what Mesaana could have done?
I'm guessing that she couldn't have, say, subtley diverted the flow of Spirit that was channeled into the Oath Rod to activate it - that would have been noticeable to others, I would think.
Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?
A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.
And, let's agree that she is posing as an AS (I know this is a debatable point, but we need to assume she is for this discussion to have any meaning).
Sanderson also stated the following, about AS in the White Tower:
Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths.
Note: BS says that all remaing WT AS retook ALL 3 OATHS, so either Mesaana is currently bound by all 3, or by none. More on this below.
So, let's agree that this statement includes Mesaana, so that Mesaana at least appeared to retake the 3 Oaths during the process in which all the remaining WT AS retook them.
The question I want to address is ... is Mesaana bound by the 3 Oaths?
Now, I've seen it suggested that Mesaana IS bound by the 3 Oaths, and that she was able to answer "Are you a darkfriend" with "No", because she doesn't consider herself to be a lowly DF, she considers herself to be a Chosen, which she truly views as a legitmate distinction.
Sanderson also has said some things on this particular issue:
Q: Do the Forsaken consider themselves Darkfriends?
A: Oooh, you are tricky! I know what you’re doing. [For those that don't, this guy is trying to figure out if this is how Mesaana beat the Oath Rod. - Terez] I would say that, in general, yes they do consider themselves Darkfriends, though there are ways somebody would be able to get around that. I would say, yes, that that is not the sort of mental gymnastics that…it is very easy to convince yourself that you are not a Darkfriend.
Q: [Messana] could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?
A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.
However, based on the bolded part of BS's answer above, even if Mesaana could have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath (which BS says may have been possible), I don't think that is what happened.
The key here is, BS says that there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod, and (as I interpret his response) that we should focus on that issue, with respect to the Mesaana question, not on the issue of whether she could simply have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath.
Which I take to mean ... Mesaana is not currently bound by ANY of the 3 Oaths. This makes sense, actually, because regardless of the do-not-lie Oath and whether she could have answered "No" to the DF question, Mesaana would never have let herself be bound not to use the OP as a weapon.
Therefore, as I see it, there are 2 possibilites:
1) The 3 Oaths "activated" when Mesaana swore them, but she knew a way to deactivate them, and did so before she answered the question about being a DF.
2) The 3 Oaths never activated when Mesaana swore them. She knew a way to keep the Oaths from activating.
And my guess is, 2) is almost certainly the correct answer. If 1) were possible, Binders/Oath Rods would have been useless in the AoL - criminal channelers (like, say, Semirhage) could have sworn any Oath they were forced to swear, and then deactivate it/them anytime thereafter, unbeknownst to anyone else.
Whereas with 2), the AoL AS who were putting the Binder on a criminal channeler could (and certainly would) ensure that the criminal wasn't trying any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod during the process, to ensure that the Oaths actually activated. Whereas, the 3rd Age AS don't know about any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod, so they don't know to look for one, and Mesaana could get away with it.
So the question is, what sort of trick did Mesaana use to prevent the Oaths from activating?
I saw this discussed very briefly in another post, and in that post someone (LitN, I think) suggested that Mesaana put some sort of Keeper weave around herself, which prevented the Oaths from activating on her (the idea being that nothing external can pass through a Keeper weave to affect whatever is behind it).
This is an interesting idea - Mesaana could have inverted the Keeper weave, so that no one knew it was there. So this could be the answer (or something similar to this - some sort of invisible "shield weave" that prevented the Oaths from activating).
But, we don't know for sure that a Keeper or any other type of shield-weave would actually prevent the Oaths from activating. It's just speculation
Another possibility I was thinking of is ... I'm pretty sure we know for certain that a Binder only works on channelers. So, maybe Mesaana knows and utilized a weave that essentially made herself a non-channeler during the time she took the Oaths, so that nothing actually happened when she took them. We know the Forsaken know of tricks that make themselves appear to be non-channelers (e.g. Lanfear must have done so when she masqueraded as Keile Shaogi), so maybe this idea isn't too much of a stretch.
In this case, we know the idea would work if such a weave is possible, since we know Binders only work on channelers.
Anyone else have any ideas on what Mesaana could have done?
I'm guessing that she couldn't have, say, subtley diverted the flow of Spirit that was channeled into the Oath Rod to activate it - that would have been noticeable to others, I would think.
Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod
18/01/2010 04:50:29 PM
- 2560 Views
I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye
18/01/2010 05:12:12 PM
- 1215 Views
Re: I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye
18/01/2010 05:43:26 PM
- 1111 Views
I like that idea ...
18/01/2010 06:07:09 PM
- 991 Views
Re: I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye
18/01/2010 05:58:44 PM
- 981 Views
I don't think Messana would have fallen over dead
18/01/2010 06:06:35 PM
- 1037 Views
I agree ...
18/01/2010 06:15:25 PM
- 916 Views
I'm not sure
18/01/2010 06:54:51 PM
- 941 Views
It didn't when Romanda retook her Oaths in TGS
18/01/2010 07:13:20 PM
- 764 Views
Hmmm ...
18/01/2010 07:24:51 PM
- 934 Views
No she unswore them and retook them
18/01/2010 07:33:30 PM
- 989 Views
Yeah, I realized that after I posted, so I editted my post (again) ...
18/01/2010 07:36:39 PM
- 954 Views
I'm not sure I follow
18/01/2010 07:41:19 PM
- 953 Views
The point I was trying to make was ...
18/01/2010 08:05:16 PM
- 747 Views
Now I get it ... seems needlessly complex for the Oath Rod though
18/01/2010 08:21:35 PM
- 744 Views
What you suggested is pretty much what I've always thought ...
18/01/2010 08:39:30 PM
- 755 Views
yup
18/01/2010 09:02:04 PM
- 646 Views
I'm with you, though ...
18/01/2010 09:27:59 PM
- 910 Views
The closest evidence we have is a Stilled/Burned out woman
18/01/2010 09:49:41 PM
- 747 Views
But if being unbound reverts you to your normal lifespan, then being bound isn't really a punishment *NM*
18/01/2010 09:52:29 PM
- 381 Views
Re: I'm not sure
18/01/2010 07:22:34 PM
- 811 Views
interesting
18/01/2010 07:46:12 PM
- 650 Views
Re: interesting
18/01/2010 08:18:11 PM
- 792 Views
The Dark Ones Mark possibly could black the oath rod? *NM*
20/01/2010 01:28:08 AM
- 367 Views
No, that can't be it, because when AS become Black Ajah ...
20/01/2010 02:53:21 PM
- 720 Views
But Alviarin's mark is different. Perhaps the mark of a FS is too *NM*
20/01/2010 04:21:16 PM
- 341 Views
Good point. I sort of misinterpreted what Kieran was suggesting. *NM*
20/01/2010 07:19:02 PM
- 366 Views
Re: Good point. I sort of misinterpreted what Kieran was suggesting.
22/01/2010 01:52:51 AM
- 884 Views
actually it's different
22/01/2010 07:32:18 AM
- 830 Views
actually I think it's the same...
23/01/2010 01:49:19 AM
- 539 Views
Nup. Unlike the FS, her mark will not allow her to order Darkspawn (plus more). *NM*
23/01/2010 11:50:36 AM
- 379 Views
Which has nothing to do with my post regarding the Oath rod... *NM*
24/01/2010 10:44:59 PM
- 374 Views
One point...
18/01/2010 06:12:26 PM
- 947 Views
Re: Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod
18/01/2010 09:43:34 PM
- 890 Views
I'm thinking the point of the thread is to discuss how to beat the Oath Rod, not Mesaana's disguise
18/01/2010 09:59:18 PM
- 717 Views
Right, and also ...
18/01/2010 10:17:11 PM
- 735 Views
Except that the best way to 'defeat' the Oath rod is - not to take the Oaths at all
19/01/2010 03:18:43 AM
- 639 Views
Another interesting possibility
19/01/2010 05:08:42 PM
- 735 Views
I'd say it was highly unlikely that the Binder/Oath Rod works that way. *NM*
19/01/2010 06:06:49 PM
- 316 Views
We've seen pretty weird stuff happens before
19/01/2010 06:30:12 PM
- 825 Views
Oh, I agree ...
19/01/2010 06:47:52 PM
- 604 Views
Re: Oh, I agree ... found a few tidbits ... EDIT
19/01/2010 06:55:22 PM
- 752 Views
Heh, I had just dug up that quote myself, before I saw your edit ...
19/01/2010 07:17:19 PM
- 767 Views
I agree, it seems as if Moghedien just effectively transmigrated Birgitte
19/01/2010 10:00:45 PM
- 845 Views
she could just be posing as a non-channeler.
19/01/2010 05:52:01 PM
- 716 Views
If RJ/Brandon lied about that... then maybe Demandred is Taim after all. *NM*
20/01/2010 03:20:42 AM
- 318 Views
To speak no word that is not true
19/01/2010 10:06:30 PM
- 785 Views
Could there be a true word, though?
20/01/2010 03:47:46 PM
- 1036 Views
I had a similar discussion with someone else, long ago ...
20/01/2010 04:05:03 PM
- 689 Views
Or would just be able to say "true, true. True true true, true true." etc. *NM*
21/01/2010 06:17:20 PM
- 361 Views
In going through some old RJ quotes I found this gem...
19/01/2010 10:22:03 PM
- 1051 Views
Nice find! Not sure if that is a "way to defeat the Oath Rod" exactly, but it's certainly feasible.
20/01/2010 03:19:51 AM
- 875 Views
Wow, that's great. I wonder what else can be created there, like sa'angeals, etc.
20/01/2010 03:54:01 AM
- 673 Views
Good find, I had forgotten about that quote ...
20/01/2010 02:42:55 PM
- 790 Views
Yes
20/01/2010 03:03:53 PM
- 779 Views
Oh I agree! I just thought it was funny that RJ made such a quote
20/01/2010 04:20:09 PM
- 772 Views
In the AoL...
20/01/2010 04:49:24 PM
- 857 Views
I was thinking this too
20/01/2010 07:18:19 PM
- 809 Views
I like it, mainly because it points to Mesaana being bested by Egwene in T'A'R
21/01/2010 04:26:34 PM
- 679 Views
maybe she warded herself before goin in or just set her frame of mind to beat it *NM*
21/01/2010 02:07:17 AM
- 400 Views