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Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod Shishka Send a noteboard - 18/01/2010 04:50:29 PM
First, let's all agree that Mesaana is still in the White Tower. Actually, for those who don't know, Sanderson confirmed this in a Q&A:

Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?

A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.


And, let's agree that she is posing as an AS (I know this is a debatable point, but we need to assume she is for this discussion to have any meaning).

Sanderson also stated the following, about AS in the White Tower:

Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths.

Note: BS says that all remaing WT AS retook ALL 3 OATHS, so either Mesaana is currently bound by all 3, or by none. More on this below.

So, let's agree that this statement includes Mesaana, so that Mesaana at least appeared to retake the 3 Oaths during the process in which all the remaining WT AS retook them.

The question I want to address is ... is Mesaana bound by the 3 Oaths?

Now, I've seen it suggested that Mesaana IS bound by the 3 Oaths, and that she was able to answer "Are you a darkfriend" with "No", because she doesn't consider herself to be a lowly DF, she considers herself to be a Chosen, which she truly views as a legitmate distinction.

Sanderson also has said some things on this particular issue:

Q: Do the Forsaken consider themselves Darkfriends?

A: Oooh, you are tricky! I know what you’re doing. [For those that don't, this guy is trying to figure out if this is how Mesaana beat the Oath Rod. - Terez] I would say that, in general, yes they do consider themselves Darkfriends, though there are ways somebody would be able to get around that. I would say, yes, that that is not the sort of mental gymnastics that…it is very easy to convince yourself that you are not a Darkfriend.

Q: [Messana] could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.


However, based on the bolded part of BS's answer above, even if Mesaana could have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath (which BS says may have been possible), I don't think that is what happened.

The key here is, BS says that there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod, and (as I interpret his response) that we should focus on that issue, with respect to the Mesaana question, not on the issue of whether she could simply have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath.

Which I take to mean ... Mesaana is not currently bound by ANY of the 3 Oaths. This makes sense, actually, because regardless of the do-not-lie Oath and whether she could have answered "No" to the DF question, Mesaana would never have let herself be bound not to use the OP as a weapon.

Therefore, as I see it, there are 2 possibilites:

1) The 3 Oaths "activated" when Mesaana swore them, but she knew a way to deactivate them, and did so before she answered the question about being a DF.

2) The 3 Oaths never activated when Mesaana swore them. She knew a way to keep the Oaths from activating.

And my guess is, 2) is almost certainly the correct answer. If 1) were possible, Binders/Oath Rods would have been useless in the AoL - criminal channelers (like, say, Semirhage) could have sworn any Oath they were forced to swear, and then deactivate it/them anytime thereafter, unbeknownst to anyone else.

Whereas with 2), the AoL AS who were putting the Binder on a criminal channeler could (and certainly would) ensure that the criminal wasn't trying any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod during the process, to ensure that the Oaths actually activated. Whereas, the 3rd Age AS don't know about any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod, so they don't know to look for one, and Mesaana could get away with it.

So the question is, what sort of trick did Mesaana use to prevent the Oaths from activating?

I saw this discussed very briefly in another post, and in that post someone (LitN, I think) suggested that Mesaana put some sort of Keeper weave around herself, which prevented the Oaths from activating on her (the idea being that nothing external can pass through a Keeper weave to affect whatever is behind it).

This is an interesting idea - Mesaana could have inverted the Keeper weave, so that no one knew it was there. So this could be the answer (or something similar to this - some sort of invisible "shield weave" that prevented the Oaths from activating).

But, we don't know for sure that a Keeper or any other type of shield-weave would actually prevent the Oaths from activating. It's just speculation

Another possibility I was thinking of is ... I'm pretty sure we know for certain that a Binder only works on channelers. So, maybe Mesaana knows and utilized a weave that essentially made herself a non-channeler during the time she took the Oaths, so that nothing actually happened when she took them. We know the Forsaken know of tricks that make themselves appear to be non-channelers (e.g. Lanfear must have done so when she masqueraded as Keile Shaogi), so maybe this idea isn't too much of a stretch.

In this case, we know the idea would work if such a weave is possible, since we know Binders only work on channelers.

Anyone else have any ideas on what Mesaana could have done?

I'm guessing that she couldn't have, say, subtley diverted the flow of Spirit that was channeled into the Oath Rod to activate it - that would have been noticeable to others, I would think.
Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.

-BHT&tM
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Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod - 18/01/2010 04:50:29 PM 2560 Views
I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye - 18/01/2010 05:12:12 PM 1215 Views
Re: I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye - 18/01/2010 05:43:26 PM 1111 Views
I like that idea ... - 18/01/2010 06:07:09 PM 991 Views
A little archaic though - 18/01/2010 06:58:04 PM 968 Views
Just because she's an academic ... - 18/01/2010 08:27:50 PM 1096 Views
Re: I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye - 18/01/2010 05:58:44 PM 981 Views
I don't think Messana would have fallen over dead - 18/01/2010 06:06:35 PM 1037 Views
I agree ... - 18/01/2010 06:15:25 PM 916 Views
I'm not sure - 18/01/2010 06:54:51 PM 941 Views
It didn't when Romanda retook her Oaths in TGS - 18/01/2010 07:13:20 PM 764 Views
Hmmm ... - 18/01/2010 07:24:51 PM 934 Views
No she unswore them and retook them - 18/01/2010 07:33:30 PM 989 Views
I'm not sure I follow - 18/01/2010 07:41:19 PM 953 Views
The point I was trying to make was ... - 18/01/2010 08:05:16 PM 747 Views
Now I get it ... seems needlessly complex for the Oath Rod though - 18/01/2010 08:21:35 PM 744 Views
Yes, this is what I was thinking *NM* - 18/01/2010 08:29:20 PM 370 Views
What you suggested is pretty much what I've always thought ... - 18/01/2010 08:39:30 PM 755 Views
yup - 18/01/2010 09:02:04 PM 646 Views
I'm with you, though ... - 18/01/2010 09:27:59 PM 910 Views
The closest evidence we have is a Stilled/Burned out woman - 18/01/2010 09:49:41 PM 747 Views
But if being unbound reverts you to your normal lifespan, then being bound isn't really a punishment *NM* - 18/01/2010 09:52:29 PM 381 Views
Sure it is - 18/01/2010 10:02:09 PM 786 Views
Also ... - 18/01/2010 10:13:38 PM 768 Views
I considered that ... - 18/01/2010 10:11:32 PM 871 Views
I doubt we'll ever really know - 18/01/2010 10:26:43 PM 786 Views
Re: I'm not sure - 18/01/2010 07:22:34 PM 811 Views
interesting - 18/01/2010 07:46:12 PM 650 Views
Re: interesting - 18/01/2010 08:18:11 PM 792 Views
see above *NM* - 18/01/2010 08:23:28 PM 406 Views
I think it more like aging them faster... - 18/01/2010 08:24:56 PM 842 Views
and given how things in the AoL works this seems far more likely - 18/01/2010 08:32:52 PM 806 Views
Re: I'm not sure - 20/01/2010 12:59:27 PM 798 Views
She's not immortal ... yet - 20/01/2010 04:15:03 PM 706 Views
The Dark Ones Mark possibly could black the oath rod? *NM* - 20/01/2010 01:28:08 AM 367 Views
No, that can't be it, because when AS become Black Ajah ... - 20/01/2010 02:53:21 PM 720 Views
But Alviarin's mark is different. Perhaps the mark of a FS is too *NM* - 20/01/2010 04:21:16 PM 341 Views
Good point. I sort of misinterpreted what Kieran was suggesting. *NM* - 20/01/2010 07:19:02 PM 366 Views
Re: Good point. I sort of misinterpreted what Kieran was suggesting. - 22/01/2010 01:52:51 AM 884 Views
actually it's different - 22/01/2010 07:32:18 AM 830 Views
actually I think it's the same... - 23/01/2010 01:49:19 AM 539 Views
One point... - 18/01/2010 06:12:26 PM 947 Views
Good point ... - 18/01/2010 06:21:22 PM 702 Views
here's another quote that gives us - 18/01/2010 07:12:09 PM 938 Views
FYI ... - 18/01/2010 06:50:22 PM 885 Views
Re: FYI ... - 18/01/2010 06:56:02 PM 932 Views
Therava channeled the flow, in that case ... - 18/01/2010 07:11:00 PM 617 Views
Yes - 18/01/2010 06:55:22 PM 689 Views
Re: I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye - 18/01/2010 06:10:45 PM 755 Views
Re: Replacing it with a fake - 18/01/2010 06:22:33 PM 741 Views
I highly doubt it ... - 18/01/2010 06:23:55 PM 800 Views
Why not ask somebody else to stand in for you? - 19/01/2010 07:55:39 PM 850 Views
I like this idea. *NM* - 20/01/2010 03:11:51 AM 349 Views
I agree... - 18/01/2010 06:55:33 PM 897 Views
Re: Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod - 18/01/2010 09:43:34 PM 890 Views
I'm thinking the point of the thread is to discuss how to beat the Oath Rod, not Mesaana's disguise - 18/01/2010 09:59:18 PM 717 Views
Right, and also ... - 18/01/2010 10:17:11 PM 735 Views
IMHO... - 19/01/2010 03:41:10 AM 924 Views
Another interesting possibility - 19/01/2010 05:08:42 PM 735 Views
I'd say it was highly unlikely that the Binder/Oath Rod works that way. *NM* - 19/01/2010 06:06:49 PM 316 Views
We've seen pretty weird stuff happens before - 19/01/2010 06:30:12 PM 825 Views
Oh, I agree ... - 19/01/2010 06:47:52 PM 604 Views
Re: Oh, I agree ... found a few tidbits ... EDIT - 19/01/2010 06:55:22 PM 752 Views
Heh, I had just dug up that quote myself, before I saw your edit ... - 19/01/2010 07:17:19 PM 767 Views
I agree, it seems as if Moghedien just effectively transmigrated Birgitte - 19/01/2010 10:00:45 PM 845 Views
she could just be posing as a non-channeler. - 19/01/2010 05:52:01 PM 716 Views
To speak no word that is not true - 19/01/2010 10:06:30 PM 785 Views
Could there be a true word, though? - 20/01/2010 03:47:46 PM 1036 Views
In going through some old RJ quotes I found this gem... - 19/01/2010 10:22:03 PM 1051 Views
Good find, I had forgotten about that quote ... - 20/01/2010 02:42:55 PM 790 Views
Yes - 20/01/2010 03:03:53 PM 779 Views
Agreed - our guts are thinking alike again. *NM* - 20/01/2010 03:12:30 PM 348 Views
Indeed - 20/01/2010 03:28:12 PM 660 Views
Oh I agree! I just thought it was funny that RJ made such a quote - 20/01/2010 04:20:09 PM 772 Views
In the AoL... - 20/01/2010 04:49:24 PM 857 Views
Re: In the AoL... - 20/01/2010 07:17:55 PM 639 Views
I was thinking this too - 20/01/2010 07:18:19 PM 809 Views
Still seems like two oaths, to me, due to the "and" ... - 20/01/2010 07:27:03 PM 676 Views
The "and" means nothing... - 20/01/2010 08:01:27 PM 619 Views
Re: Good find, I had forgotten about that quote ... - 21/01/2010 05:24:18 AM 989 Views
I like it, mainly because it points to Mesaana being bested by Egwene in T'A'R - 21/01/2010 04:26:34 PM 679 Views
Re: Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod - 20/01/2010 04:11:37 AM 773 Views
Re: Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod - 20/01/2010 07:28:39 AM 725 Views
It can't be that easy ... - 20/01/2010 02:51:47 PM 725 Views

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