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I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention Cannoli Send a noteboard - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
And that is how the slippery slope begins. These types of things tend to start with that line of reasoning, with the line of reasoning escalating. If I was a more religious person, I could argue that in the real world, we aren't talking about souls but physical bodies, and as terrible as mass murder is their souls would still be saved by a God somewhere.
No serious or significant religion makes that judgment, nor does any serious orthodox believer hold that belief. The only religious justifications for mass killing would be if the targets in question had so greviously offended God that they had it coming, in which case, He is probably not going to exert Himself to save them, or else they are endangering the faith or something by their actions. The commonly heard sayings "Kill 'em all & let God sort them out" or "God will know His own" originated as exhortations in military (i.e. justifiable-killing) situations, intended to overcome the religiously-inspired squeamishness of their subordinates towards killing. You just sound like a horse's ass and reveal your own prejudices when you attribute such inept reasoning to religious believers.

What Rand did was demolish those souls with little understanding if those would ever come back - judging from the behavior of him and his companions they all assumed that those souls were gone forever, and I think it's unfortunate that so many of the arguments here bring in RJ's statement to justify it.
Who cares, one way or another? Even if they ARE destroyed for all time (I don't believe that, but don't care about that anyway), it makes no difference. The state or fate of one's soul is strictly a private matter, and irrelevant to the justification of their homicide.

If President Bush had decided to nuke Afghanistan and Iraq saying that the souls would be reborn in another few generations, we'd call him insane, yet in the bounds of this fictional world there are too many people IMO willing to concede that this is rational. It was not a rational act. It was the act of the madman and power mad tyrant that Rand stood on the threshhold of becoming.
Good point. But just because they are idiots does not make them wrong about Rand being justified.

We actually saw this slipper slope escalate in the books: After balefiring the hundreds of people at Graendals' palace, Rand later threatens to rain fire using the Choedan Kal on the Borderlander army which consisted of thousands of people, and later even then he considers to wipe out the headquarters of the Seanchan incursion with balefire - that is a population that dwarfed what was in Graendal's place.
Thousands of people in uniform, with weapons, under agreement to unquestioningly follow the orders of their rulers who have demonstrated zero good faith, and about whom a strong cause can be made for their presumed hostility. SOLDIERS ARE LEGITIMATE TARGETS. Period. This was not a trade delegation, or convention of merchants, it was an army. They refused to explain their ends to a person they believed to have some connection with Rand, and their words regarding their intentions were all indicative of their displeasure at him. They are not his people, and he owes them nothing. Their demand that he put himself entirely in their power, even as they cozy up to a city that has behaved in an extremely hostile manner towards him in the past, whose current government replaced their former leader for her decision to release him from captivity. Rand had NO reason to think them friendly or benevolent, and they were an ARMY in threatening distance of his own followers and forces. Any other way of dealing with them would have entailed greater risks to people he IS responsible for. He was justified in what he planned to do to the Borderlanders AND to the Seanchan. If they don't like it, they shouldn't have come. The "innocent" civilians have had plenty of time to move away (as for example, the Anan family did, in their moral outrage over the Seanchan institutions), but have chosen the Seanchan. They are all culpable.

The problem with rationalizing these types of things is that you lose your humanity by denying that other people have a valid right to existence.
And you moralizers lose your credibility by denying that other people have a valid right to protect their own existence. In other words, no one's right to exist takes precedence over your own. You have the right to kill anyone who endangers your existance, as does Rand.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1904 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 1342 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 1304 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1340 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 1243 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 1156 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 1232 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 1138 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 1130 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 1105 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 1096 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 1060 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 1098 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 1079 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 1187 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 1113 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 1200 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 1146 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 1178 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 1105 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 1172 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 1081 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 1199 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 1195 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 1158 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 1229 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 1045 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 1230 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 581 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 1100 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 1104 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 1062 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 588 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 1045 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 580 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 1086 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 1026 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 1185 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 1154 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 1133 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 1127 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 1142 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 1119 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 1239 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 1077 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 1211 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 1058 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 1118 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 1093 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 1109 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 1123 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 1054 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 1137 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 1100 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 1016 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 1170 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 1143 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 1158 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 1069 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 1108 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 1004 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 1031 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 1208 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 1054 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 1037 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 1128 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 1102 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 1094 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 1169 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 1028 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 1068 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 1151 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 1053 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 1218 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 1167 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 1099 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 1143 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 1055 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 1173 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 1125 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 1118 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 1054 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 1127 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 1308 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1429 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 1004 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 1050 Views

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