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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
It creates a logical flaw to me if it cannot be done.

We know that Rand had lots of LTT knowledge and would know about balefire and how much damage the pattern can take. He even says it to Cadsuane.

We know that Rand did not want to destroy the pattern yet, he was still gunning for victory.

So why would he have balefired Graendal with a blast sufficient to destroy the world.


Well, we're still assuming that Pattern unraveling comes from a predetermined set amount of damage done to the Pattern, possibly in one blow. I'm not necessarily ready to accept this.

Here's another possibility I hadn't mentioned previously. Maybe even damage below the irreparable state causes severe trouble, like the time/space chaos we've observed in the later books. Things like rooms changing places or the Village in Shiota or Hinderstap.

Obviously, Rand did not expect this would destroy the world. But we do know that balefire damages the Pattern. We do not know exactly what that entails, but there is no reason to believe that what Rand did in A Force of Light was not horrifying. All our knowledge up to now leads us to this conclusion.

Ofcourse he was not holding back. I never argued that. What I suggest that there is a way to widen the beam. No reason for that here though since Rand knew exactly where Rahvin was. He could see him illuminated in Nynaeves fire. I don't understand what Rahvin scene has to do with anything?


He also used balefire when he was running after him. Tel'aran'rhiod is mostly empty, chances of collateral damage are minimal. Why not widen the balefire stream to increase your chances of hitting Rahvin?

Mentioned like all the other things Rand got from LTT? There are constant mentions of Rand suddenly knowing advanced stuff as memories pass to him from LTT. When did he learn the traveling trick for instance. Or when did he know how to unweave compulsion. None of those are mentioned, and yet Rand learned them somewhere. Learning a technique to better control balefire from LTT could be no different.


But they are mentioned when he uses them. You are arguing that he used this novel method against Graendal, but there is no indication of it.

Umm. Clarify? Both sides were using it. Both sides wiped out cities. The damage became too much and the pattern began to unravel. People realised what was going on and stopped. Thats how I think it might have happened.

Ok. I admit in all likelyhood, the city annihilation was done mostly by the shadow. Unless the light knew that the city was composed entirely of trollocs with no civilians for instance. I could see them annihilating a city then.

Maybe there was an empty city with millions of trollocs eating dead bodies, and the light took the opportunity to take em out in a single blow.


Now you're just fabricating entirely implausible and unfounded scenarios out of whole cloth for no other reason than to justify your desired conclusion.

Well, First of all, have we ever seen a balefire stream kilometers long. No.


Since I never said we had (actually, that seems more akin to what you are arguing, using width instead of length), I fail to see why you mention this.

Second. Why would they wave around these balefire bars rather than just blowing up the city in an easier, faster and more traditional way.


Why does anyone use balefire? It seems like it's a less easily blocked weapon, I guess. Robert Jordan says that entire cities were destroyed using balefire, so one must assume they did. Why did Nynaeve use balefire against those Myrddraal in The Dragon Reborn? Why did Rand use balefire against Rahvin and Sammael and so forth? I don't really understand the point of this question. It's a powerful weapon, so they used it.

Do you agree that a circle of 72 channelers armed with the angreal and sa'angrel that AoLers had available, could have destroyed a city by, for example, creating a massive explosion at the center.


Why would they have ever used balefire if it was all slow and cumbersome like you suggest, rather than even quicker and deadlier than the huge megaton explosion, which is what I suggest.

Presumably because the defenders would have countered that sort of attack. How else do you explain Lews Therin dueling Forsaken in Paaren Disen if all they ever did was wipe out cities from a distance? Also, I imagine that they wanted to capture the city, rather than destroy it.

Not exactly.

While the balefire argument has taken a life of its own, my original idea was that Rand, not wanting to destroy the pattern, was carefull with his balefire, creating a wider stream to take out the entire palace yes, but keeping the burning back time weak to miminize the damage as much as he could. And that the damage to the pattern was not catastrophic.


Yes, I know that is your argument. My response was that there is no basis to it. We have never even heard that it was possible, Rand in that chapter does not lead us to believe that this would be one of his concerns, and it would run counter to the purpose of the scene in the narrative.

If the width of the beam is solely dependent on the power behind the beam, then to create a city-destroying beam of balefire would require more power than AoLers had available, even with links of 72. We can figure this from the fact that even Rand&Angreal could only create a 1 meter thick beam at his most powerfull.

So, if it is possible to create a wide but weak beam to destroy a city, then thats probably also what Rand did Graendals palace since he did not want to destroy the world. And 300 people being burned back only a little, while obviously damaging, would be nothing compared to a HUNDRED THOUSAND being burned.

So essentially. If it is not possible to control the beam(your view), in order to wipe out the entire palace in one go, Rand pumped a huge amound of power into the balefire, burning Graendal and the zombies back days or weeks, causing really serious damage. This would make this a rather evil and psychotic act. My original argument would be incorrect then. Rand should have let Graendal go, even knowing what harm she would continue to do, rather than cause that much damage.

If on the other hand it is possible to control the beam, then Rand was probably carefull, and the damage was not all the significant. In this case the price of removing Graendal from the playing field was probably worth it in the long run and Rand was right.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1582 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 983 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 979 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1006 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 909 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 821 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 939 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 853 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 820 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 774 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 763 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 730 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 757 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 740 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 897 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 806 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 864 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 745 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 841 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 778 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 772 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 764 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 874 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 888 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 802 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 915 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 725 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 764 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 405 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 792 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 794 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 761 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 442 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 740 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 376 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 750 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 725 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 859 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 776 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 812 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 810 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 794 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 792 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 816 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 771 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 822 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 712 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 803 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 782 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 793 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 808 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 749 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 821 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 754 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 694 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 872 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 806 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 781 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 742 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 798 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 705 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 730 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 882 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 728 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 733 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 813 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 754 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 786 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 866 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 734 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 737 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 803 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 740 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 886 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 839 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 794 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 827 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 722 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 829 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 768 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 815 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 738 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 812 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 973 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1081 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 705 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 750 Views

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