Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
It creates a logical flaw to me if it cannot be done.
We know that Rand had lots of LTT knowledge and would know about balefire and how much damage the pattern can take. He even says it to Cadsuane.
We know that Rand did not want to destroy the pattern yet, he was still gunning for victory.
So why would he have balefired Graendal with a blast sufficient to destroy the world.
We know that Rand had lots of LTT knowledge and would know about balefire and how much damage the pattern can take. He even says it to Cadsuane.
We know that Rand did not want to destroy the pattern yet, he was still gunning for victory.
So why would he have balefired Graendal with a blast sufficient to destroy the world.
Well, we're still assuming that Pattern unraveling comes from a predetermined set amount of damage done to the Pattern, possibly in one blow. I'm not necessarily ready to accept this.
Here's another possibility I hadn't mentioned previously. Maybe even damage below the irreparable state causes severe trouble, like the time/space chaos we've observed in the later books. Things like rooms changing places or the Village in Shiota or Hinderstap.
Obviously, Rand did not expect this would destroy the world. But we do know that balefire damages the Pattern. We do not know exactly what that entails, but there is no reason to believe that what Rand did in A Force of Light was not horrifying. All our knowledge up to now leads us to this conclusion.
Ofcourse he was not holding back. I never argued that. What I suggest that there is a way to widen the beam. No reason for that here though since Rand knew exactly where Rahvin was. He could see him illuminated in Nynaeves fire. I don't understand what Rahvin scene has to do with anything?
He also used balefire when he was running after him. Tel'aran'rhiod is mostly empty, chances of collateral damage are minimal. Why not widen the balefire stream to increase your chances of hitting Rahvin?
Mentioned like all the other things Rand got from LTT? There are constant mentions of Rand suddenly knowing advanced stuff as memories pass to him from LTT. When did he learn the traveling trick for instance. Or when did he know how to unweave compulsion. None of those are mentioned, and yet Rand learned them somewhere. Learning a technique to better control balefire from LTT could be no different.
But they are mentioned when he uses them. You are arguing that he used this novel method against Graendal, but there is no indication of it.
Umm. Clarify? Both sides were using it. Both sides wiped out cities. The damage became too much and the pattern began to unravel. People realised what was going on and stopped. Thats how I think it might have happened.
Ok. I admit in all likelyhood, the city annihilation was done mostly by the shadow. Unless the light knew that the city was composed entirely of trollocs with no civilians for instance. I could see them annihilating a city then.
Maybe there was an empty city with millions of trollocs eating dead bodies, and the light took the opportunity to take em out in a single blow.
Ok. I admit in all likelyhood, the city annihilation was done mostly by the shadow. Unless the light knew that the city was composed entirely of trollocs with no civilians for instance. I could see them annihilating a city then.
Maybe there was an empty city with millions of trollocs eating dead bodies, and the light took the opportunity to take em out in a single blow.
Now you're just fabricating entirely implausible and unfounded scenarios out of whole cloth for no other reason than to justify your desired conclusion.
Well, First of all, have we ever seen a balefire stream kilometers long. No.
Since I never said we had (actually, that seems more akin to what you are arguing, using width instead of length), I fail to see why you mention this.
Second. Why would they wave around these balefire bars rather than just blowing up the city in an easier, faster and more traditional way.
Why does anyone use balefire? It seems like it's a less easily blocked weapon, I guess. Robert Jordan says that entire cities were destroyed using balefire, so one must assume they did. Why did Nynaeve use balefire against those Myrddraal in The Dragon Reborn? Why did Rand use balefire against Rahvin and Sammael and so forth? I don't really understand the point of this question. It's a powerful weapon, so they used it.
Do you agree that a circle of 72 channelers armed with the angreal and sa'angrel that AoLers had available, could have destroyed a city by, for example, creating a massive explosion at the center.
Why would they have ever used balefire if it was all slow and cumbersome like you suggest, rather than even quicker and deadlier than the huge megaton explosion, which is what I suggest.
Presumably because the defenders would have countered that sort of attack. How else do you explain Lews Therin dueling Forsaken in Paaren Disen if all they ever did was wipe out cities from a distance? Also, I imagine that they wanted to capture the city, rather than destroy it.
Not exactly.
While the balefire argument has taken a life of its own, my original idea was that Rand, not wanting to destroy the pattern, was carefull with his balefire, creating a wider stream to take out the entire palace yes, but keeping the burning back time weak to miminize the damage as much as he could. And that the damage to the pattern was not catastrophic.
While the balefire argument has taken a life of its own, my original idea was that Rand, not wanting to destroy the pattern, was carefull with his balefire, creating a wider stream to take out the entire palace yes, but keeping the burning back time weak to miminize the damage as much as he could. And that the damage to the pattern was not catastrophic.
Yes, I know that is your argument. My response was that there is no basis to it. We have never even heard that it was possible, Rand in that chapter does not lead us to believe that this would be one of his concerns, and it would run counter to the purpose of the scene in the narrative.
If the width of the beam is solely dependent on the power behind the beam, then to create a city-destroying beam of balefire would require more power than AoLers had available, even with links of 72. We can figure this from the fact that even Rand&Angreal could only create a 1 meter thick beam at his most powerfull.
So, if it is possible to create a wide but weak beam to destroy a city, then thats probably also what Rand did Graendals palace since he did not want to destroy the world. And 300 people being burned back only a little, while obviously damaging, would be nothing compared to a HUNDRED THOUSAND being burned.
So essentially. If it is not possible to control the beam(your view), in order to wipe out the entire palace in one go, Rand pumped a huge amound of power into the balefire, burning Graendal and the zombies back days or weeks, causing really serious damage. This would make this a rather evil and psychotic act. My original argument would be incorrect then. Rand should have let Graendal go, even knowing what harm she would continue to do, rather than cause that much damage.
If on the other hand it is possible to control the beam, then Rand was probably carefull, and the damage was not all the significant. In this case the price of removing Graendal from the playing field was probably worth it in the long run and Rand was right.
So, if it is possible to create a wide but weak beam to destroy a city, then thats probably also what Rand did Graendals palace since he did not want to destroy the world. And 300 people being burned back only a little, while obviously damaging, would be nothing compared to a HUNDRED THOUSAND being burned.
So essentially. If it is not possible to control the beam(your view), in order to wipe out the entire palace in one go, Rand pumped a huge amound of power into the balefire, burning Graendal and the zombies back days or weeks, causing really serious damage. This would make this a rather evil and psychotic act. My original argument would be incorrect then. Rand should have let Graendal go, even knowing what harm she would continue to do, rather than cause that much damage.
If on the other hand it is possible to control the beam, then Rand was probably carefull, and the damage was not all the significant. In this case the price of removing Graendal from the playing field was probably worth it in the long run and Rand was right.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Rand the psycho?
06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
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I cannot follow your assumptions.
06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
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Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM
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Wait!
06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM
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I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
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Of course, I agree with you, esp since I just put forth the idea you support earlier in the thread.
11/01/2010 04:58:26 PM
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Rand crossed a line
06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM
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Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently?
06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM
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No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM*
06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM
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But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes.
06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM
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No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM*
06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM
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LOL ... super-death!
06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM
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Yes it was.
06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM
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let me ask the question in a different way
06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM
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Re: let me ask the question in a different way
06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
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actually that quote supports my thoughts
06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM
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Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts
07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM
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yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
07/01/2010 12:34:34 AM
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Re: yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
07/01/2010 01:13:40 AM
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Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take.
07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
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Sigh. What mass murder?
07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM
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In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM
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Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS!
07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM
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OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol:
07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM
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Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again
06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM
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Meh
06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM
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The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM
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I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good...
07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM
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I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM
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right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions
07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
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Nice way to avoid the argument.
07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM
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I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people
07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM
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I concede
07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM
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You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning.
07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM
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Morals are subjective anyhow,
07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM
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Re: Morals are subjective anyhow,
07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM
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I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
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You are treating Graendal's "pets" as though they were enemy combatants
07/01/2010 03:40:03 PM
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Like I give a damn what a group of professional killers would do.
08/01/2010 11:39:11 PM
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Graendal captured these people as part of the Shadows offensive, Operation Chaos Rules
09/01/2010 12:00:40 AM
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Well, I still liked your first argument. It's a freaking war. The argument ...
07/01/2010 07:08:53 PM
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