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Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. RugbyPlayingAshaman Send a noteboard - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
Not even to get rid of a forsaken who might destablize it even more? I have never claimed that Rand did no damage, just that thanks to LTT and the knowledge of balefire he has from the WoP, he is better equipped to judge the damage done to the pattern than anyone else alive.


I'll have to say a big 'Meh' to this - LTT didn't understand a lot of things, one of which was A) how to defeat the Dark One and B) how to nullify the effect the Dark One had on the Pattern. I tend to think how the Pattern (and balefire) works are something that only the Creator (ie: Robert Jordan) ultimately knew.

I think this may be a situation similar to the mass-suicide of the Amayar wherein RJ was surprised more readers weren't affected by this in a more visceral way, but I think he may have underestimated exactly how many readers would quickly become apologists for whatever insane horror Rand unleashed because he is the "Hero"/main protagonist.

I think this is ultimately one of those sci-Fi author-lead questions like "Where is your humanity!?" and someone responds, "In the Fiction section. We go to Sci-Fi/fantasy to indulge our feelings of superiority, our need for clear heroes to root for and our need for violent spectacle."

From the WoT FAQ regarding balefire:
"John Walter Biles explains: The Pattern unravels permanently because in a war of mass destruction with balefire, you can yank threads out of the Pattern faster than they can be replaced. Yeah, they can EVENTUALLY be reborn, but unless the total population of all of creation is static, then they won't be reborn instantly. More importantly, it screws up causality. That's why the Pattern can unravel; it's not that you run out of threads, it is that if you nuke an entire city, every consequence of every action by everyone in the entire city is suddenly undone back to point X. Given the amount of balefire nuking a city takes, you can make quite a mess. Do enough damage to the Pattern faster than it can repair itself, and it still comes apart."

The reason I post that explanation is that it isn't the who, what, when and where that seems to matter, it is the effect of burning out large populations with balefire that causing the Pattern to unravel. So the magnitude of what Rand did really wasn't lessened because he might have killed Graendal - it was worse because he was messing with the laws of time and space.
"Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise will sooner or later have to find time for illness."
This message last edited by RugbyPlayingAshaman on 07/01/2010 at 12:10:34 AM
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1592 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 991 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 990 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1014 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 920 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 830 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 949 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 861 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 831 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 784 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 780 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 742 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 768 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 749 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 904 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 813 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 875 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 755 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 849 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 786 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 797 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 775 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 884 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 899 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 811 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 924 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 738 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 787 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 409 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 802 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 808 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 772 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 447 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 752 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 387 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 761 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 736 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 868 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 790 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 828 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 819 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 805 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 803 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 824 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 780 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 836 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 722 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 812 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 796 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 801 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 816 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 757 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 831 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 762 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 704 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 882 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 816 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 793 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 749 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 806 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 715 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 739 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 891 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 738 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 743 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 821 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 766 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 798 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 874 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 742 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 748 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 812 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 751 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 896 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 849 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 805 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 837 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 731 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 840 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 787 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 826 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 749 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 823 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 981 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1089 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 717 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 757 Views

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