I think there are two factors in Balefire:
1 - Strength (how far back in time the Pattern is burnt out)
2 - Area (how much the balefire affects - this includes the range of the BF)
This is actually what I am arguing for. That a channeler can choose how wide the balefire stream is, and how strong it is. So Rand could choose a wide but weak stream to burn a large group back only a second. Or a single focused intense stream to burn just a single target back many hours.
But I am also suggesting that these two are not linked. So if he had enough power, he could also create a wide stream that burned everyone back an hour. Or he could create a focused stream that burned you back a second. It would be up to him.
The fact that entire cities were burned in the AoL in one go seems to support this. The AoLers who did not have unlimited power used a wide but weak stream. That still would have destroyed the city effectively, but without burning everyone back for more than just a few seconds maybe?
I see no reason to believe that Rand moderated his use of the CK. After all, he is taking out one of the top Forsaken, and before this, he spreads the knowledge of Balefire to his Asha'man (Narishma), suggesting that while he knows it is dangerous, he doesn't really realise why or how much it is.
Uhh?
At this point in the series, Rand has almost completely merged with LTT. And LTT was there when Balefire was invented. It is very likely that rather than not realising the danger, Rand actually knows better than anyone else alive (other than the forsaken) how balefire works, what it does and how much the pattern can take.
Read the scene where Cadsuane tries to order him to stop and he draws upon LTT to smack her down as the ignorant child that she is.
Given that, and given that he knows that the timespan he burned Rahvin back was sufficient since Moridin told him that Rahvin was gone. And given that he has not had his breakdown yet and does not want to destroy the pattern, why would he burn Graendal back any more than he did Rahvin? I see no reason why he would.
I think what we saw was a wide balefire stream that had been attuned so that while it touched everyone, those that it touched were not burned back all that long. No more than Rahvin and probably less. He might even have used as little as what Moiraine used when he took out Bel'al.
Yes, it did damage, but nowhere near enough to seriously endanger the pattern. And I doubt Rand had to draw upon all the power the CK had to offer to do this. I think he could have even used Callandor to accomplish this had he wished. Heck, a circle of 13 might have done the trick.
Now, Brandon has commented on how far back in time balefire can take things - we know that at most, it couldn't have taken Graendal back more than a week or so (Brandon said a day or two IIRC), but we know that the balefire was strong enough to remove the Compulsion placed on Ramshalan (probably 20-60 minutes earlier). Note that this minimum is roughly equal to or greater than the amount of time that Rand restored in TFoH with Rahvin.
With Rahvin, Rand used at most 1 metre squared of balefire (likely less, but we'll be generous). We also know that Natrin's Barrow is a large estate, so assuming that Rand's target area was 1km squared is not unreasonable.
1km squared = 1 million metres. This strongly suggests that he is definitely drawing deeply on the Choedan Kal.
I agree that he could not have created a stream wide enough to encompass the entire palace unaided. But I am arguing that he did not come close to drawing fully on the CK.
Even just 1% of the max power of CK would probably have been enough to take out the palace. That 1% would still be many many times more than Rands unaided strength though. But 1% is not drawing deeply.
Why would Rand, who did not want to destroy the pattern yet, use 100% of what the CK has to offer if he KNEW from LTT and what happened to Rahvin that 1% would be enough. And actually that 1% would be better/safer. No reason I can think of that he would have.
2 - We never hear how far back the population was taken. For all we know, the balefire streams were broad but far weaker than Rand's, only taking them back seconds or perhaps even less.
But if it is possible to create a stream that is broad and wide, but weak at the same time. Why would Rand have create a stream that was wide AND strong. He would know it was not required and would only cause unnecessary damage to the pattern. Damage that he, at this point in the book, did not want to cause yet.
Rand the psycho?
06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
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I cannot follow your assumptions.
06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
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Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM
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Wait!
06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM
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I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
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Of course, I agree with you, esp since I just put forth the idea you support earlier in the thread.
11/01/2010 04:58:26 PM
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Rand crossed a line
06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM
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Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently?
06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM
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No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM*
06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM
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But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes.
06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM
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No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM*
06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM
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LOL ... super-death!
06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM
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Yes it was.
06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM
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let me ask the question in a different way
06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM
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Re: let me ask the question in a different way
06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
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actually that quote supports my thoughts
06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM
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Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts
07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM
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yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
07/01/2010 12:34:34 AM
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Re: yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
07/01/2010 01:13:40 AM
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Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take.
07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
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Sigh. What mass murder?
07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM
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In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM
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Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS!
07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM
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OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol:
07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM
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Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again
06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM
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Meh
06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM
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The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM
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I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good...
07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM
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I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM
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right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions
07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
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Nice way to avoid the argument.
07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM
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I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people
07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM
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I concede
07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM
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You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning.
07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM
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Morals are subjective anyhow,
07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM
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Re: Morals are subjective anyhow,
07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM
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I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
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You are treating Graendal's "pets" as though they were enemy combatants
07/01/2010 03:40:03 PM
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Like I give a damn what a group of professional killers would do.
08/01/2010 11:39:11 PM
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Graendal captured these people as part of the Shadows offensive, Operation Chaos Rules
09/01/2010 12:00:40 AM
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Well, I still liked your first argument. It's a freaking war. The argument ...
07/01/2010 07:08:53 PM
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