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Re: But... Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM

We don't even know, if all people in the palace were drones (and also Rand couldn't know). For example, Ituralde also visited Graendal in her palace once, and wasn't a drone. Such visitors might have been in the palace, when Rand destroyed it. But in the end, Rand doesn't care about such collateral damage, because he wants Graendal.


LTT, who should know believes that Graendal would never be willing to let someone serve her who was not a drone. Though I admit that you are correct about the possibility of visitors. I would say however that the odds are in favor that Rand killed only drones.

But even if someone innocent died, well, that is tragic yes. But this is war and the unfortunately reality is that in war, people die. What if when Rand created that shadowspawn blasting weave in the Stone, a trolloc was standing too close to an innocent and the innocent was killed in the blast. Does that mean Rand should have done nothing and just let the trollocs all run loose rather than take the chance that he MIGHT kill someone with friendly fire.

From the PoV of Rand (and Min&Nynaeve), it was highly likely that only Graendal was alive there. And Graendal had to die. The chance had to be taken. And it is likely that by doing so, by killing Graendal (presumably), he saved a lot of people who would otherwise have been killed or mindraped by her in the future. Possibly many thousands.

What Rand did here was really not that different from what he did when he killed Rahvin and was flinging fire around. Or when he attacked Dashiva&co after they blew his room. He had no way of being 100% certain that bystanders would not be caught in the act, but he did his best, with the knowledge he had, to make sure they were not. Just as he did here.

But Min and Nynaeve seemed to act as though he deliberately set out to commit mass murder here when that is clearly not the case. So while we cannot know for sure, I repeat, Graendal was likely the only living person to die.

If you don't act in war because of some minute chance that there might be innocents in the way, you will never be able to do anything at all and you will lose the war.

War sucks. :(


The point is that the incident with Graendal's palace seems like the catalyst for Rand losing the rest of all restraints (and humanity) to use balefire on a large scale. After he destroyed the palace, the next big thing he considers is balefiring all the Seanchan bulwarks, although the Seanchan are common enemies and Rand is aware that innocent people might die as well.


But why? Why would this incident be a turning point rather than when he channeled the TP. As I have tried to argue, while harsh, what Rand did here was not the horrific evil that it was portraid as.

Seems more likely to me that the moment Rand touched TP, he started going crazy and that what happened here had nothing to do with the scenes later at Far Madding and Ebou Dar.


Doubt that Min is such aware of the mechanics of rebirth and balefire. However, her thoughts imply that she thinks a balefire death is final.


Herid Fel was since he knew that the wheel kept turning and the souls kept being reborn and the DO was sealed and released and sealed and so on.

Min has been studying his books to the point that she has figured out much of what Fel knew. Seems strange that she would not realise that if balefire destroyed souls, after a few turnings there would be none left.
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1520 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 927 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 923 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 950 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 850 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 765 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 890 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 790 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 764 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 700 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 731 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 701 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 704 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 682 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 839 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 754 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 797 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 681 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 765 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 713 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 700 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 707 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 801 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 832 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 745 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 850 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 671 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 703 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 383 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 734 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 734 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 704 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 417 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 686 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 337 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 684 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 664 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 827 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 721 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 730 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 745 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 738 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 732 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 760 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 703 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 771 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 648 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 738 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 726 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 739 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 752 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 696 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 754 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 698 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 637 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 817 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 740 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 711 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 676 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 736 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 674 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 672 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 828 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 668 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 677 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 753 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 689 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 731 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 801 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 667 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 670 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 743 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 679 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 825 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 783 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 735 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 768 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 662 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 766 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 717 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 752 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 674 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 751 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 914 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1011 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 645 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 694 Views

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