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Re: Rand crossed a line Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM
He showed that he is willing to use balefire on a large scale to destroy a whole palace with a Forsaken in it, even if he kills innocent people alongside the Forsaken (and even if all those people were "drones", they are still innocent and not the real targets).


Yes, but they are indeed drones. It is a horrific thing to contemplate.

Imagine having your mind raped so badly that you had no free will of your own. You could not choose anything, you were just a mindcontrolled puppet with each action you made somethin Graendal wanted you to make.

If you were lucky, you would be totally dead, as the puppet Rand created in Tear was.

If you were unlucky, there would be a part of you, under all that compulsion, buried deep, SCREAMING!

I don't know about you, but if I had been one of those people in Graendals palace, the tiny part of me would have been very gratefull for Rand for putting an end to that kind of utter torture.

We know there was no way to fix the damage Graendal had caused. No way to heal those innocents. I guess whether you think this bad or not depends on the difference between living and existing.

Imagine that you suffered severe brain damage. You were left paralysed, blind and mute. Now imagine you are in a hospital, hooked to machines keeping you alive. There is no way for the real you to communicate. The only thing you could do is just lie there, trapped within your own mind, unable to talk, unable to walk, unable to do anything that makes life worth living. With the knowledge that you have nothing to look forward to, except just lying there, with no input or output. Only desperately looking forward to death which would release you from the living hell your life has become. Now imagine realising that you are young that you will be trapped in this existence for 50 more years. How long until madness sets in? In that situation would you really not pray with all your strength that someone would pull the plug? I know I would.

This is in some ways a situation similar to Graendals drones. Even if there was something left, buried deep. They were as unable to do anything they wanted. They were programmed robots obeying Graendals whims. An existence far FAR worse than death.

Rand was right. It was a mercy. Those drones may have been existing, but they were not alive. Graendal was the only living thing to die there that day.


As it's shown later in TGS, Rand starts then to see balefire as a common weapon. He already contemplates to balefire Tam and all the Seanchan. The next possible step would be that Rand considers to balefire whole cities, which don't bow to him or if he just believes that a Forsaken is inside the city. Ultimately such an attitude threatens humankind and the Pattern. Therefore balefire is forbidden and to use it widespread as Rand did an atrocity. Even the Forsaken don't want to use balefire this way anymore.


True. And as I said in my original post, I don't deny that Rand went crazy. I mean we see that in the fact that he was about to rain fire on that army, or the fact that he nearly killed Tam and most certainly when he nearly blew up the world. I was focusing on this particular incident however. The rest have not happened yet.


Besides that, Min and Nynaeve apparently - wrongly - believe that someone who was balefired can never be reborn, which would make its use even more horrific.


Hmm. That is actually a good point that could explain it. If balefire destroyed the soul, what Rand did would have been terrible. But balefire does not do that.

Still maybe Min and Nynaeve do think that.

Wait, how can Min think that? She has been reading Herids books. She knows that time is cyclical and that souls are constantly reborn to create new threads to the pattern as time goes on.

If Balefire were to destroy souls, and if the wheel has turned as long as it has, surely the usage of balefire would have destroyed all possible souls many many turnings ago. Min should be able to realise that considering the little philosopher she has turned into.
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1592 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 991 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 990 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1014 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 919 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 830 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 948 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 861 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 831 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 784 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 780 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 742 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 768 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 749 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 904 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 813 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 875 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 755 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 849 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 786 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 797 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 775 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 884 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 899 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 811 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 924 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 738 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 787 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 408 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 802 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 808 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 772 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 447 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 752 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 387 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 760 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 736 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 867 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 790 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 827 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 819 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 805 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 803 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 824 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 779 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 835 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 722 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 812 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 796 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 801 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 816 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 757 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 831 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 762 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 704 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 882 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 816 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 792 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 749 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 806 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 715 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 739 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 891 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 738 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 743 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 821 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 766 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 798 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 874 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 742 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 747 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 812 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 751 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 895 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 849 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 805 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 837 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 731 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 840 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 787 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 826 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 749 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 823 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 981 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1088 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 717 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 757 Views

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