Apparently Rand could have balefired Graendal&co back a year and the pattern would have survived (if just barely).
Again, this does not necessarily follow. Just because it is theoretically possible for the Pattern to survive someone being balefired a year back does not mean that it would. All squares are rectangles, all rectangles are not squares.
And while BS varies in his estimates, most are in 1-2 week estimates. I admit thats a lot more than the 15 minutes I first came up with. Though I should say that BS does not totally crush the idea that Rand has control over Balefire, those just say how much Rand could have balefired Graendal back if he really used every scap of power available.
I don't understand what you're saying. Where does it say what proportion of his total power Rand was using?
The problem here is that it was explicitly explained in TGS that Moridin does want the pattern to end. It was also implied that Rand planning to blow up the pattern at the end might have been partly due to the link.
Anyway there is no suggestion here that Moridin is lying to Rand so until we get proof otherwise, I will assume that Moridin truly does want the pattern to end. It is certainly implied elsewhere aswell. I mean during the AoL, the guy wrote books like "the Absence of Meaning"
I do not believe that balefire is harmless to the pattern. There is no question that it is. I agree with this fully.
So the question then is, why is it that Moridin is not unraveling the pattern with balefire. Why is he not running around everywhere balefiring everyone as I suggested. I see three obvious potential explanations.
It could be as you say and Moridin's plans cannot be accomplished via balefire. But this begs the question, why not. I mean if Moridin wants the pattern to end. And balefire can end the pattern. Then what? Huh!? I mean am I to believe that Moridin is so picky that pattern unraveling via balefire wont work and that he wants the _exact same thing_ to happen via DO instead. I mean unraveling is unraveling is it not?
But even if that is the case which is tough to accept, why not use balefire just enough to almost unravel the pattern, and then let the DO do the rest. Help him along so to speak. Instead Moridin uses no balefire at all.
The second reason is that Moridin is an idiot and in all those years it never occurred to him "Hey! I want to end the pattern. Balefire would do that. I don't even need the DO!"
The third reason is that the pattern is more durable than we think and Moridin alone and without angreal/sa'angreal cannot weave enough balefire to unmake reality, he needs the help of the DO.
Which of those reasons is the most likely?
Anyway there is no suggestion here that Moridin is lying to Rand so until we get proof otherwise, I will assume that Moridin truly does want the pattern to end. It is certainly implied elsewhere aswell. I mean during the AoL, the guy wrote books like "the Absence of Meaning"
I do not believe that balefire is harmless to the pattern. There is no question that it is. I agree with this fully.
So the question then is, why is it that Moridin is not unraveling the pattern with balefire. Why is he not running around everywhere balefiring everyone as I suggested. I see three obvious potential explanations.
It could be as you say and Moridin's plans cannot be accomplished via balefire. But this begs the question, why not. I mean if Moridin wants the pattern to end. And balefire can end the pattern. Then what? Huh!? I mean am I to believe that Moridin is so picky that pattern unraveling via balefire wont work and that he wants the _exact same thing_ to happen via DO instead. I mean unraveling is unraveling is it not?
But even if that is the case which is tough to accept, why not use balefire just enough to almost unravel the pattern, and then let the DO do the rest. Help him along so to speak. Instead Moridin uses no balefire at all.
The second reason is that Moridin is an idiot and in all those years it never occurred to him "Hey! I want to end the pattern. Balefire would do that. I don't even need the DO!"
The third reason is that the pattern is more durable than we think and Moridin alone and without angreal/sa'angreal cannot weave enough balefire to unmake reality, he needs the help of the DO.
Which of those reasons is the most likely?
We've got to deal with some assumptions again. For one thing, we do not really know what the Pattern unraveling means for Moridin exactly. It is not necessarily the same as being destroyed. Maybe it means that it has to start the whole thing over? Or maybe it does mean that it is destroyed. Or maybe it means something else. How should I know?
Another is again with Moridin's plan. You seem to find it unlikely that Moridin's plans require that the Pattern be destroyed otherwise than with balefire.
But then I ask you, why is it so important that Rand live? This has been part of Ishamael's plans from book 1. Yet we know from the Age of Legends that Shai'tan can perfectly well tear the Pattern apart just by touching it enough. Is Ishamael really so picky that Shai'tan destroying the Pattern while Rand is dead just won't do and he needs the exact same thing to happen when Rand lives?
Apparently so.
As such, I would withhold from making assumptions on what Ishamael's unknown plans are.
I would say that unless there is some proof otherwise, the obvious and logical assumption would be that balefire has a cumulative effect.
We know how it works, it burns a thread backwards in the pattern. Burn more threads and you get a bigger hole. Burn lots of threads and the pattern is so filled with holes that it comes apart. That seems reasonable assumption to me?
It also seems reasonable to me that the pattern is capable of repairing balefire damage to some extent. If this were not the case, if each balefire use brought the pattern a bit closer to unraveling, then does not the fact that the wheel has been turning for such a long time suggest that the pattern would have had to unravel a long time ago. Unless you suggest that for some reason, this turning is the ONLY time balefire has been used?
I did do a quick check at the end here and I did find this:
Q: Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?
RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there's not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there's nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?
That certainly seems suggestive to me that it is the NUMBER of the threads that causes the damage.
We know how it works, it burns a thread backwards in the pattern. Burn more threads and you get a bigger hole. Burn lots of threads and the pattern is so filled with holes that it comes apart. That seems reasonable assumption to me?
It also seems reasonable to me that the pattern is capable of repairing balefire damage to some extent. If this were not the case, if each balefire use brought the pattern a bit closer to unraveling, then does not the fact that the wheel has been turning for such a long time suggest that the pattern would have had to unravel a long time ago. Unless you suggest that for some reason, this turning is the ONLY time balefire has been used?
I did do a quick check at the end here and I did find this:
Q: Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?
RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there's not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there's nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?
That certainly seems suggestive to me that it is the NUMBER of the threads that causes the damage.
Ah, it does, but look at this:
Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy the world.
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy the world.
And Shai'tan isn't even part of the Pattern, so here we have zero threads being balefired causing the Pattern's destruction. So you see, it's more complicated than it seems.
Finally, I'd have to say that it seems bizarre to me that you're making unnecessary assumptions that lead to the books and authours being incoherent. If your assumptions are right, then Min and Nynaeve, and the entire scene's intent (which means the authour(s) as well) are delusional and misguided. If your assumptions are right, Moridin is an incompetent and an idiot. Why make unnecessary assumptions that create problems, rather than solve them? Sure, nothing you say is impossible, but then again, neither is it probable, and given that its consequences require the incoherence of the source material, it seems more logical to me to work toward consistency, not against it.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Rand the psycho?
- 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
1513 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions.
- 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
916 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
- 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM
757 Views
Wait!
- 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM
880 Views
Re: Wait!
- 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM
784 Views
Re: Wait!
- 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM
756 Views
Re: Wait!
- 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM
693 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM
830 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM
752 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM
789 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM
675 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM
757 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM
709 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
- 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
695 Views
Of course, I agree with you, esp since I just put forth the idea you support earlier in the thread.
- 11/01/2010 04:58:26 PM
1191 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
- 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM
794 Views
Rand crossed a line
- 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM
826 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently?
- 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM
699 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM*
- 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM
380 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes.
- 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM
729 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM*
- 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM
414 Views
LOL ... super-death!
- 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM
681 Views
Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM
819 Views
Re: Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM
716 Views
Re: Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM
720 Views
Re: Yes it was.
- 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM
741 Views
let me ask the question in a different way
- 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM
732 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way
- 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
724 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts
- 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM
751 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts
- 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM
699 Views
yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
- 07/01/2010 12:34:34 AM
679 Views
Re: yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
- 07/01/2010 01:13:40 AM
663 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take.
- 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
765 Views
Sigh. What mass murder?
- 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM
641 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM
720 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM
730 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM
741 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM
684 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM
751 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM
688 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM
631 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS!
- 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM
806 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
- 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM
735 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol:
- 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM
705 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again
- 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM
820 Views
Meh
- 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM
659 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM
673 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM
745 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM
680 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good...
- 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM
723 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
- 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM
664 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM
664 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM
739 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM
673 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
- 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM
816 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions 
- 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
774 Views
- 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
774 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument.
- 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM
732 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people
- 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM
762 Views
I concede
- 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM
656 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning.
- 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM
760 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow,
- 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM
744 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow,
- 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM
669 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
- 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
743 Views
You are treating Graendal's "pets" as though they were enemy combatants
- 07/01/2010 03:40:03 PM
750 Views
Like I give a damn what a group of professional killers would do.
- 08/01/2010 11:39:11 PM
658 Views
Graendal captured these people as part of the Shadows offensive, Operation Chaos Rules
- 09/01/2010 12:00:40 AM
954 Views
Well, I still liked your first argument. It's a freaking war. The argument ...
- 07/01/2010 07:08:53 PM
700 Views