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Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM

I am unaware that it is possible to consciously adjust the potency of balefire. Not saying it's impossible, just asking for your source in this assertion. Thus far, everything we've seen leads us to believe that the amount of balefire used is proportional to its potency - and there was more balefire used in this one scene than in the entire rest of the series, combined.


Good point. I guess I just assumed that it was possible. I do remember that Rand controlled the intensity during the dark hound incident but it is true that there he did it by reducing the power. I believed that Rand could control the balefire to use the added strength to make it wide. Ofcourse the way balefire works in TGS is weird.

Still, I looked and I found these quotes from BS. Some are interesting and/or suggestive but none truly confirm the idea.


The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Chester County Books, Philadelphia 6 November 2009 - Paul Grow reporting

One fan asked him...if the balefiring of Graendal could bring back Asmodean, if in fact Graendal was the person who killed him. Brandon essentially said no, because it happened much too long ago. At best balefire burns someone out of the Pattern 3 days to a week at the absolute most. But usually more like 5 minutes.


The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Chester County Books, Philadelphia 6 November 2009 - gammahunter reporting

I asked if Graendal were dead and had she killed Asmodean could he pop back up in Caemlyn. He said no. He said that Rand only took Rahvin out of the Pattern for 15 minutes to an hour. So, even if the Choedan Kal were a thousand times stronger than Rand with the fat man it would only be like 9 days at most.

More interesting, however, is that he said that we have not seen anyone who could burn someone out of the Pattern that long, however, it was possible for someone to be that strong! -- Who or what could this be?


The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting


Matt: Question—Did Robert Jordan leave a power to time comparison, as to how much time is burned back on a thread using balefire? Is there a calculation that says x amount of power will burn back x amount of time on a thread?
Brandon: M.A.F.O – Maria and Find Out. What he did leave, he left a lot of stuff, there is discussion of these things in the notes. I need to look and see if there is an actual equation. He was very focused on strength of the power and things like that. He has probably told you before, I think I’ve seen a copy of that on notes and things. He did leave scales on exactly how powerful each person is…


I dont know if Maria ever did find out.


Brandon: Alright, thirty minutes to an hour. Okay, let’s say the Choedan Kal amplifies his abilities 100 fold…let’s say it’s a 100 times more powerful than Rand. That’s giving us, lets say he got an hour, we’ve got four days, from the most powerful, one of the most powerful sa’angreal ever created. I think it is unrealistic to assume you can get back a year, but that’s not saying it is impossible. I think that if you did that to the Pattern the ramifications would be so dramatic you’d see the Pattern unraveling hardcore at that point, it’s like balefiring an entire city. When I first read that guess I just laughed, I’m like guys c’mon lets run the math on this.


Apparently Rand could have balefired Graendal&co back a year and the pattern would have survived (if just barely).

And while BS varies in his estimates, most are in 1-2 week estimates. I admit thats a lot more than the 15 minutes I first came up with. Though I should say that BS does not totally crush the idea that Rand has control over Balefire, those just say how much Rand could have balefired Graendal back if he really used every scap of power available.


This assumption is based on what you believe Moridin's plans are, but as we do not know exactly what those are, it's pretty much unfounded from the get-go. I mean, ask yourself, which of these possibilities is a more reasonable explanation for Moridin not balefiring entire populations?

1- Contrary to all evidence provided in the series and by Word of God (by Robert Jordan himself), balefire is actually harmless to the Pattern. After all, it can't be a question of quantity - Moridin wouldn't limit himself to a few hundred victims. If the unraveling of the Pattern through the use of balefire was Moridin's desire and dependent on a quantity of victims, Moridin would find that quantity of people and balefire them. therefore, contrary to Robert Jordan's opinion, balefire is completely and absolutely harmless to the Pattern.

2- Moridin's plans cannot come about through the destruction of the Pattern through balefire.


The problem here is that it was explicitly explained in TGS that Moridin does want the pattern to end. It was also implied that Rand planning to blow up the pattern at the end might have been partly due to the link.

Anyway there is no suggestion here that Moridin is lying to Rand so until we get proof otherwise, I will assume that Moridin truly does want the pattern to end. It is certainly implied elsewhere aswell. I mean during the AoL, the guy wrote books like "the Absence of Meaning"

I do not believe that balefire is harmless to the pattern. There is no question that it is. I agree with this fully.

So the question then is, why is it that Moridin is not unraveling the pattern with balefire. Why is he not running around everywhere balefiring everyone as I suggested. I see three obvious potential explanations.

It could be as you say and Moridin's plans cannot be accomplished via balefire. But this begs the question, why not. I mean if Moridin wants the pattern to end. And balefire can end the pattern. Then what? Huh!? I mean am I to believe that Moridin is so picky that pattern unraveling via balefire wont work and that he wants the _exact same thing_ to happen via DO instead. I mean unraveling is unraveling is it not?

But even if that is the case which is tough to accept, why not use balefire just enough to almost unravel the pattern, and then let the DO do the rest. Help him along so to speak. Instead Moridin uses no balefire at all.

The second reason is that Moridin is an idiot and in all those years it never occurred to him "Hey! I want to end the pattern. Balefire would do that. I don't even need the DO!"

The third reason is that the pattern is more durable than we think and Moridin alone and without angreal/sa'angreal cannot weave enough balefire to unmake reality, he needs the help of the DO.

Which of those reasons is the most likely?


Finally, you assume that the destruction of the Pattern through balefire would happen through number of victims in an incident of balefire use. But we have no reason to believe this is how it happens. Really, the only was to know how would be for it to happen, and then there would be nobody to know.

There are innumerable possibilities other than that. Just as a way of examples, it could be a strict number of victims, but an absolute number, and every victim of balefire counts toward that number, therefore even a single victim of balefire brings the world distinctly closer to oblivion.

Or it could be a percentage - Say, one victim gives it a 0,01% chance of the Pattern unraveling, and a city would be a 20% chance. That still means that the Pattern could unravel from the balefire of just one person - say, Rahvin in The Fires of Heaven just as much as it could from an entire city.

And there are other possibilities too.

So I can't agree with you, simply because I don't accept your assumptions as true.


I would say that unless there is some proof otherwise, the obvious and logical assumption would be that balefire has a cumulative effect.

We know how it works, it burns a thread backwards in the pattern. Burn more threads and you get a bigger hole. Burn lots of threads and the pattern is so filled with holes that it comes apart. That seems reasonable assumption to me?

It also seems reasonable to me that the pattern is capable of repairing balefire damage to some extent. If this were not the case, if each balefire use brought the pattern a bit closer to unraveling, then does not the fact that the wheel has been turning for such a long time suggest that the pattern would have had to unravel a long time ago. Unless you suggest that for some reason, this turning is the ONLY time balefire has been used?


I did do a quick check at the end here and I did find this:


Q: Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?

RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there's not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there's nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?


That certainly seems suggestive to me that it is the NUMBER of the threads that causes the damage.

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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1520 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 926 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 923 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 950 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 850 Views
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Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 889 Views
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Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 763 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 699 Views
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I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 701 Views
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Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 682 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 839 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 754 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 797 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 681 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 765 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 712 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 699 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 707 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 801 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 832 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 744 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 850 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 670 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 703 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 383 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 734 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 734 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 703 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 417 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 686 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 337 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 684 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 664 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 827 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 721 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 730 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 745 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 738 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 732 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 760 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 702 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 771 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 648 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 738 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 725 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 739 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 751 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 696 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 753 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 698 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 637 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 817 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 740 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 710 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 675 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 735 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 674 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 671 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 827 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 668 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 677 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 753 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 688 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 731 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 801 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 667 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 670 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 742 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 678 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 825 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 783 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 735 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 767 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 662 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 766 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 716 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 752 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 673 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 751 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 913 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1010 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 645 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 693 Views

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