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I cannot follow your assumptions. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.

Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.


I am unaware that it is possible to consciously adjust the potency of balefire. Not saying it's impossible, just asking for your source in this assertion. Thus far, everything we've seen leads us to believe that the amount of balefire used is proportional to its potency - and there was more balefire used in this one scene than in the entire rest of the series, combined.

If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.


This assumption is based on what you believe Moridin's plans are, but as we do not know exactly what those are, it's pretty much unfounded from the get-go. I mean, ask yourself, which of these possibilities is a more reasonable explanation for Moridin not balefiring entire populations?

1- Contrary to all evidence provided in the series and by Word of God (by Robert Jordan himself), balefire is actually harmless to the Pattern. After all, it can't be a question of quantity - Moridin wouldn't limit himself to a few hundred victims. If the unraveling of the Pattern through the use of balefire was Moridin's desire and dependent on a quantity of victims, Moridin would find that quantity of people and balefire them. therefore, contrary to Robert Jordan's opinion, balefire is completely and absolutely harmless to the Pattern.

2- Moridin's plans cannot come about through the destruction of the Pattern through balefire.

It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.


Finally, you assume that the destruction of the Pattern through balefire would happen through number of victims in an incident of balefire use. But we have no reason to believe this is how it happens. Really, the only was to know how would be for it to happen, and then there would be nobody to know.

There are innumerable possibilities other than that. Just as a way of examples, it could be a strict number of victims, but an absolute number, and every victim of balefire counts toward that number, therefore even a single victim of balefire brings the world distinctly closer to oblivion.

Or it could be a percentage - Say, one victim gives it a 0,01% chance of the Pattern unraveling, and a city would be a 20% chance. That still means that the Pattern could unravel from the balefire of just one person - say, Rahvin in The Fires of Heaven just as much as it could from an entire city.

And there are other possibilities too.

So I can't agree with you, simply because I don't accept your assumptions as true.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1592 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 992 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 990 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 1014 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 920 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 830 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 949 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 861 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 831 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 784 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 780 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 742 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 768 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 749 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 904 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 813 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 875 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 755 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 849 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 786 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 797 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 775 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 884 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 899 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 811 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 924 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 738 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 787 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 409 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 802 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 808 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 772 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 447 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 753 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 387 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 761 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 736 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 868 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 790 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 828 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 819 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 805 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 803 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 824 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 780 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 836 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 722 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 812 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 796 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 801 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 816 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 757 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 831 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 762 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 704 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 882 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 816 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 793 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 749 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 806 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 715 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 739 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 891 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 739 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 743 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 821 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 766 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 798 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 874 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 743 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 748 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 812 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 751 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 896 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 849 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 805 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 837 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 731 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 840 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 787 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 826 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 750 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 823 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 981 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1089 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 717 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 757 Views

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