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Rand the psycho? Datakim Send a noteboard - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
I was wondering something.

In TGS, Rand balefires Graendals entire palace, killing not just her(probably) but also everyone who serves her. He also burns all those threads backwards a bit. During this event, both Min and Nynaeve are absolutely horrified at what Rand just did. Nynaeve actually is so disturbed that she actually goes to Cadsuane and becomes all submissive in the hope that Cadsuane will change the course Rand has taken. Surely what Rand did was a horrific evil on a grand scale. A true atrocity.

Or is it?

I was thinking about this and it occurred to me to wonder why exactly are Min and Nynaeve so absolutely horrified. Why is Rand so convinced that he has damned himself. Why does Min think that what happened must be destroying Rand inside. I mean think about it, what actually happened there?

We KNOW from several sources (LTT, the boy, forsaken scenes) that all those people in the fortress other than Graendal were just mindless drones. Min and Nynaeve know it too since Rand explains it to them. They were essentially already dead. Yes, they might have been moving around, their lungs breathing, their hearts pumping. But we can say the same for that little girl Rand tried to resurrect with Callandor. Is it then murder when Rand pulled back his flows and let the girls body die?

Without awareness and free will, without intelligence and sentience, things which Graendal has taken away from them, can the people in the palace truly be said to be alive?

And if they cannot, does that not mean that the ONLY person that was truly ALIVE in that place was Graendal herself? A monster by any measure. So really, is what Rand did evil at all? Did any innocent civilian actually die?

Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.

Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.

So we have 300 people balefired with each one burned back in time 15 minutes. This does produce a reaction. Min describes it as reality warping around them. Perhaps this then is the atrocity here. Rand actually damages the pattern itself, endangering everything. He comes very close to destroying the world here.

Or does he?

If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.

We know why the rest of the forsaken don't do this. They want to rule and as such don't want the pattern to unravel. But we KNOW that Moridin is different. During the dream-meet he openly admits that the DO is going to unmake the pattern, that he knows it and that he thinks this is a really good thing.

It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.

Nothing else makes sense to me. Yes, Min does have a reaction that is written as pretty freaky but we have nothing to compare this reaction to. It is entirely subjective to her. For all we know this is actually the pattern going "Meh!" because what Rand did was utterly insignificant.

So really, why is it that Min and Nynaeve are so horrified? What was so terrible about what Rand did? It may not exactly be a thing of sunshine and little dancing kittens but I would say that many things Rand has done before have actually been worse. Rand was correct to do what he did to get rid of Graendal and Min and Nynaeve are just being fools.

I don't deny that Rand does go psycho in TGS, and that many of the things such as threatening to rain fire on the borderlanders show that he has totally lost it. But is this one specific act, balefiring Graendals palace, truly as wrong as it is suggested? I think not.
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Rand the psycho? - 06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM 1571 Views
I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM 970 Views
On Balefire - 06/01/2010 04:43:18 AM 966 Views
Good point - 06/01/2010 05:04:26 AM 995 Views
On the nature of BaleFire - 06/01/2010 03:32:25 PM 900 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM 807 Views
Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM 929 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM 839 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM 808 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM 761 Views
Re: Wait! - 06/01/2010 03:55:01 PM 751 Views
I disagree - 06/01/2010 05:42:44 PM 721 Views
Re: I disagree - 06/01/2010 06:41:08 PM 745 Views
Re: I disagree - 07/01/2010 04:42:40 AM 728 Views
I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM 887 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM 794 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM 847 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM 733 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM 829 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM 769 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire. - 07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM 749 Views
I agree with Templar - 09/01/2010 04:36:20 PM 756 Views
Re: I cannot follow your assumptions. - 06/01/2010 07:57:54 AM 860 Views
Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM 877 Views
Re: Rand crossed a line - 06/01/2010 04:16:12 PM 790 Views
But... - 06/01/2010 04:34:02 PM 904 Views
Re: But... - 06/01/2010 06:14:25 PM 716 Views
Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently? - 06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM 750 Views
No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM* - 06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM 398 Views
But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes. - 06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM 783 Views
What? - 06/01/2010 06:20:56 PM 785 Views
Where did you get that? - 06/01/2010 07:09:38 PM 750 Views
No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM* - 06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM 439 Views
LOL ... super-death! - 06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM 731 Views
Hah! *NM* - 07/01/2010 12:06:07 AM 357 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:20 AM 741 Views
It makes me think of History of the World Part 1 - 07/01/2010 12:53:33 AM 713 Views
Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM 848 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM 768 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM 798 Views
Re: Yes it was. - 06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM 799 Views
let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM 784 Views
Re: let me ask the question in a different way - 06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM 782 Views
actually that quote supports my thoughts - 06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM 803 Views
Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts - 07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM 759 Views
Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take. - 07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM 814 Views
Sigh. What mass murder? - 07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM 702 Views
you are kidding right? - 07/01/2010 12:19:58 AM 789 Views
In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM 774 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM 779 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM 795 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM 738 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM 810 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM 744 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM 684 Views
Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS! - 07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM 863 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully. - 07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM 794 Views
OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM 764 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 01:53:25 PM 729 Views
Re: OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol: - 08/01/2010 02:56:41 PM 786 Views
What might work... - 08/01/2010 12:35:17 PM 693 Views
Re: What might work... - 08/01/2010 11:38:09 PM 719 Views
Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again - 06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM 872 Views
Meh - 06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM 718 Views
The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM 723 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM 801 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM 744 Views
I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good... - 07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM 777 Views
*laughs behind hand* - 07/01/2010 12:05:54 AM 852 Views
Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them! - 07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM 724 Views
I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM 727 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM 792 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM 732 Views
Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing - 07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM 875 Views
right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions - 07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM 829 Views
Nice way to avoid the argument. - 07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM 783 Views
I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people - 07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM 818 Views
I concede - 07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM 712 Views
You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning. - 07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM 815 Views
Tee hee. - 07/01/2010 05:28:52 AM 759 Views
Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM 803 Views
Re: Morals are subjective anyhow, - 07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM 727 Views
I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM 802 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 09/01/2010 05:56:16 PM 963 Views
Re: I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention - 18/01/2010 01:00:23 PM 1069 Views
Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 11/01/2010 04:47:10 PM 697 Views
Re: Your assertions weaken your overall argument. - 18/01/2010 12:49:26 PM 738 Views

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