I was wondering something.
In TGS, Rand balefires Graendals entire palace, killing not just her(probably) but also everyone who serves her. He also burns all those threads backwards a bit. During this event, both Min and Nynaeve are absolutely horrified at what Rand just did. Nynaeve actually is so disturbed that she actually goes to Cadsuane and becomes all submissive in the hope that Cadsuane will change the course Rand has taken. Surely what Rand did was a horrific evil on a grand scale. A true atrocity.
Or is it?
I was thinking about this and it occurred to me to wonder why exactly are Min and Nynaeve so absolutely horrified. Why is Rand so convinced that he has damned himself. Why does Min think that what happened must be destroying Rand inside. I mean think about it, what actually happened there?
We KNOW from several sources (LTT, the boy, forsaken scenes) that all those people in the fortress other than Graendal were just mindless drones. Min and Nynaeve know it too since Rand explains it to them. They were essentially already dead. Yes, they might have been moving around, their lungs breathing, their hearts pumping. But we can say the same for that little girl Rand tried to resurrect with Callandor. Is it then murder when Rand pulled back his flows and let the girls body die?
Without awareness and free will, without intelligence and sentience, things which Graendal has taken away from them, can the people in the palace truly be said to be alive?
And if they cannot, does that not mean that the ONLY person that was truly ALIVE in that place was Graendal herself? A monster by any measure. So really, is what Rand did evil at all? Did any innocent civilian actually die?
Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.
Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.
So we have 300 people balefired with each one burned back in time 15 minutes. This does produce a reaction. Min describes it as reality warping around them. Perhaps this then is the atrocity here. Rand actually damages the pattern itself, endangering everything. He comes very close to destroying the world here.
Or does he?
If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.
We know why the rest of the forsaken don't do this. They want to rule and as such don't want the pattern to unravel. But we KNOW that Moridin is different. During the dream-meet he openly admits that the DO is going to unmake the pattern, that he knows it and that he thinks this is a really good thing.
It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.
Nothing else makes sense to me. Yes, Min does have a reaction that is written as pretty freaky but we have nothing to compare this reaction to. It is entirely subjective to her. For all we know this is actually the pattern going "Meh!" because what Rand did was utterly insignificant.
So really, why is it that Min and Nynaeve are so horrified? What was so terrible about what Rand did? It may not exactly be a thing of sunshine and little dancing kittens but I would say that many things Rand has done before have actually been worse. Rand was correct to do what he did to get rid of Graendal and Min and Nynaeve are just being fools.
I don't deny that Rand does go psycho in TGS, and that many of the things such as threatening to rain fire on the borderlanders show that he has totally lost it. But is this one specific act, balefiring Graendals palace, truly as wrong as it is suggested? I think not.
In TGS, Rand balefires Graendals entire palace, killing not just her(probably) but also everyone who serves her. He also burns all those threads backwards a bit. During this event, both Min and Nynaeve are absolutely horrified at what Rand just did. Nynaeve actually is so disturbed that she actually goes to Cadsuane and becomes all submissive in the hope that Cadsuane will change the course Rand has taken. Surely what Rand did was a horrific evil on a grand scale. A true atrocity.
Or is it?
I was thinking about this and it occurred to me to wonder why exactly are Min and Nynaeve so absolutely horrified. Why is Rand so convinced that he has damned himself. Why does Min think that what happened must be destroying Rand inside. I mean think about it, what actually happened there?
We KNOW from several sources (LTT, the boy, forsaken scenes) that all those people in the fortress other than Graendal were just mindless drones. Min and Nynaeve know it too since Rand explains it to them. They were essentially already dead. Yes, they might have been moving around, their lungs breathing, their hearts pumping. But we can say the same for that little girl Rand tried to resurrect with Callandor. Is it then murder when Rand pulled back his flows and let the girls body die?
Without awareness and free will, without intelligence and sentience, things which Graendal has taken away from them, can the people in the palace truly be said to be alive?
And if they cannot, does that not mean that the ONLY person that was truly ALIVE in that place was Graendal herself? A monster by any measure. So really, is what Rand did evil at all? Did any innocent civilian actually die?
Now yes, Rand does use balefire and we know its dangerous. Infact, perhaps that is the real reason for the horror that Min and Nynaeve feel. But really does that make sense either? How many people were in that palace? A hundred? Two? Lets go for broke and say Graendal had three hundred people in his palace. Now we know that Rand knows the damage balefire causes, he does not yet want to destroy the pattern at this point so we can assume that he regulated the amount of power used to only burn the people back as little as possible. Let's say 15 minutes.
Now you could argue that 15 minutes is too little since Rand used the Choedan Kal itself to do the job. However I would argue that the reason he had to use the CK was to erase the entire palace at once and not to burn the people back days or weeks. Remember that at this point Rand still wants to save the pattern so he would not do this.
So we have 300 people balefired with each one burned back in time 15 minutes. This does produce a reaction. Min describes it as reality warping around them. Perhaps this then is the atrocity here. Rand actually damages the pattern itself, endangering everything. He comes very close to destroying the world here.
Or does he?
If all it took to damage the pattern in a way that was in any way significant was to balefire 300 people back 15 minutes, then why has Moridin not done that? I mean he could just travel to some obscure village or town and start blasting away. Given how strong we know Moridin is, he could easily balefire 300 people. Heck, there are a lot of villages so if Moridin wanted he could probably balefire more than 300 people easily. In a few weeks he could probably balefire 3000. Or more! And each one more than 15 minutes. And these would be people who would actually be alive and sentient. With more active threads than the drones in Graendals palace.
We know why the rest of the forsaken don't do this. They want to rule and as such don't want the pattern to unravel. But we KNOW that Moridin is different. During the dream-meet he openly admits that the DO is going to unmake the pattern, that he knows it and that he thinks this is a really good thing.
It seems to me than that when we take the fact that Moridin does not do this together with other facts such as Rands comment that he has seen many thousands burned from the pattern together with the fact that apparently during the War of power, balefire was used on entire cities, it seems to me that erasing 300 drones who probably had very little influence on anything, and one forsaken, would do very little real damage to the pattern. To have a significant effect would probably require tens of thousands of people balefired or Moridin would constantly be out there secretly balefiring people as fast as he could.
Nothing else makes sense to me. Yes, Min does have a reaction that is written as pretty freaky but we have nothing to compare this reaction to. It is entirely subjective to her. For all we know this is actually the pattern going "Meh!" because what Rand did was utterly insignificant.
So really, why is it that Min and Nynaeve are so horrified? What was so terrible about what Rand did? It may not exactly be a thing of sunshine and little dancing kittens but I would say that many things Rand has done before have actually been worse. Rand was correct to do what he did to get rid of Graendal and Min and Nynaeve are just being fools.
I don't deny that Rand does go psycho in TGS, and that many of the things such as threatening to rain fire on the borderlanders show that he has totally lost it. But is this one specific act, balefiring Graendals palace, truly as wrong as it is suggested? I think not.
Rand the psycho?
06/01/2010 02:53:30 AM
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I cannot follow your assumptions.
06/01/2010 04:07:33 AM
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Re: I cannot follow your assumptions.
06/01/2010 04:59:12 AM
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Wait!
06/01/2010 05:10:33 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 05:20:02 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 05:58:00 AM
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Re: Wait!
06/01/2010 11:46:13 AM
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I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 07:30:56 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 03:32:24 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 09:52:47 PM
- 798 Views
Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
06/01/2010 11:19:56 PM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 12:21:50 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 12:56:26 AM
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Re: I doubt he meant 'in one go' as a single stream of balefire.
07/01/2010 01:46:16 AM
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Of course, I agree with you, esp since I just put forth the idea you support earlier in the thread.
11/01/2010 04:58:26 PM
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Rand crossed a line
06/01/2010 02:36:42 PM
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Doesn't Balefire remove your thread from the Pattern permanently?
06/01/2010 02:55:38 PM
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No, RJ stated balefired people can be reborn. *NM*
06/01/2010 03:26:00 PM
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But not in this turning of the Wheel. So they'd miss out on MANY lifetimes.
06/01/2010 05:46:04 PM
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No, balefire just kills you backwards in time. It is not super-death. *NM*
06/01/2010 09:58:18 PM
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LOL ... super-death!
06/01/2010 11:59:31 PM
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Yes it was.
06/01/2010 06:51:15 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 07:16:14 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 08:58:40 PM
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Re: Yes it was.
06/01/2010 10:47:11 PM
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let me ask the question in a different way
06/01/2010 11:26:43 PM
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Re: let me ask the question in a different way
06/01/2010 11:40:56 PM
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actually that quote supports my thoughts
06/01/2010 11:50:40 PM
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Re: actually that quote supports my thoughts
07/01/2010 12:10:07 AM
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yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
07/01/2010 12:34:34 AM
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Re: yet it could take him some undetermined amount of time to figure out your dead?
07/01/2010 01:13:40 AM
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Meh. I just think advocating mass-murder is the opposite direction RJ meant for this to take.
07/01/2010 12:00:44 AM
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Sigh. What mass murder?
07/01/2010 12:15:01 AM
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In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 03:14:32 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 03:57:43 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 07:13:21 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 07:52:24 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 08:56:43 PM
- 754 Views
Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:26:01 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:30:45 PM
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Personally I'm kind of sick of Rand being the only person killing FS!
07/01/2010 09:42:57 PM
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Re: In this book Rand was a wimp and a bully.
07/01/2010 09:56:02 PM
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OK I'm sorry but this gets a huge ROFL :lol:
07/01/2010 10:30:19 PM
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Yes. Anakin Skywalker all over again
06/01/2010 11:01:02 PM
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Meh
06/01/2010 11:30:24 PM
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The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:33:32 PM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:50:37 PM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
06/01/2010 11:55:03 PM
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I do have to guiltily say, though, that if Rand had balefired the Seanchan and THEN became good...
07/01/2010 12:03:20 AM
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Re: The worst part about his atrocities is his rationalizing them!
07/01/2010 12:23:11 AM
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I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 12:52:25 AM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 01:24:32 AM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 03:33:52 PM
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Re: I don't think Rand or LTT (who has/have) little capacity for Healing
07/01/2010 04:28:18 PM
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right cause all Generals are so well versed in medical conditions
07/01/2010 09:44:09 PM
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Nice way to avoid the argument.
07/01/2010 10:00:17 PM
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I'm just done talking in circles. You seem to think that because people
07/01/2010 11:53:05 PM
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I concede
07/01/2010 01:09:11 AM
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You weren't wrong overall, but there were some serious flaws in your reasoning.
07/01/2010 02:43:17 AM
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Morals are subjective anyhow,
07/01/2010 06:23:09 AM
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Re: Morals are subjective anyhow,
07/01/2010 03:23:59 PM
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I have religious beliefs and that is an absurd contention
09/01/2010 12:00:02 AM
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You are treating Graendal's "pets" as though they were enemy combatants
07/01/2010 03:40:03 PM
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Like I give a damn what a group of professional killers would do.
08/01/2010 11:39:11 PM
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Graendal captured these people as part of the Shadows offensive, Operation Chaos Rules
09/01/2010 12:00:40 AM
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Well, I still liked your first argument. It's a freaking war. The argument ...
07/01/2010 07:08:53 PM
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