Re: A reply... - Edit 1
Before modification by fionwe1987 at 04/01/2010 09:04:27 PM
Because you're splitting hairs. RJ never knew the absolute strengths of his channelers - he admits it's a 21 level list. You can't prove that a level 1 is twice as strong as a level 10 - you can only talk about the prevalence of that level.
Can you prove that statement of your please? Because as far as I know, it is pure invention to back up your list!
Not at all. He spoke about the percentage of women who would qualify for the shawl, saying that a third are too weak. You can't place a value on more than that.
This is getting ridiculous. Never expected you to lie and hedge like this, but since it seems you're determined to fudge the facts, here are the two separate quotes where the bell curve is mentioned:
In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength.
And
Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve. I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve.
In case you conveniently miss it again, I've bolded, underlined and italicized the FACT that RJ said that the bell curve distribution is for STRENGTH, not the level occupied by the channeler, but STRENGTH.
Since it is strength that follows a bell curve, and since I know my mathematics, the x-axis will contain values for STRENGTH.
I have to say, I never expected to have to provide the same quote so many times to you.
Because adding several levels above Nynaeve, or even one level, would cause an imbalance and there's no evidence that he never conceived of the weakest channelers like Morgase.
He never added levels above Nynaeve, he pushed her down. If she was the strongest in the old list, she would have equaled Rand. In the new list, she does not. Unless you think the women above her exceed Rand, your contention that it imbalances the curve is false.
I'm saying you can't put a value on the 21-levels based on the bell curve.
I'm not. I'm assigning random values on the basis of a random range. Maybe RJ's range is not from 1 to 100. Maybe it is. Whatever the range you take, though, RJ's statement proves that the average strength channeler will be half as strong as the strongest.
If you want to disprove that, you need to show me a quote where RJ says it is the 21 levels of strength, and not strength itself, that follows a bell curve distribution. Which you cannot do.
RJ only has the levels. He doesn't have anything else. Really..
How the hell do you know? And if he doesn't have absolute values, why did he lie and say it is strength which follows a bell curve distribution?
It's possible that some equal her.
We don't know how many, making that quote from Galina useless to prove or disprove my list or yours.
I'd be surprised if there weren't some who had Kiruna's strength.
I wouldn't be surprised if a significant amount were not.
No, not really. In fact, without RJ's bell curve quote you probably can't prove a single claim regarding your strength list.
What kind of an argument is that? I used to agree with your list till the implications of the bell curve statement set in. At which point, I reevaluated the evidence and found that what RJ said does work (no surprise since this is his work).
You, on the other hand, prove here that your list can only work if you ignore RJ's quote or alter its meaning completely to suit your needs.
Frankly, you're now sounding like those people who insist Taimandred is still a valid theory despite RJ stating flatly that this isn't so.
There are many quotes to refute it. You're clutching to this quote when in fact it lends almost no evidence by way of female strength, only how common each level is.
There is not one single quote in the books that matches RJ's. His statements is unbiased and coming from the Creator of the series, should be the first thing we consider. People like Aviendha, Asmodean, etc. do not speak gospel. RJ does, when it comes to the series.
You yourself have done the same. Till RJ clarified the issue, Asmo's statement that the average man was twice as strong as the average woman informed our discussions on strength, and people like Shannow continued to insist on following that long after RJ said that dexterity made men and women equals. At that point, you, as well as any sane reader, decided that Asmo's quote that it took two linked woman to match a single man was colored by his bias against women. RJ's quote was the basis by which we interpreted the quotes in the books about men and women.
When it is your precious list in question, however, you neatly reverse tactics. I fail to see why that is correct.
So omission is evidence now?
Evidently, since you omit RJ's own quote to justify your list.
I don't know... maybe Reds are practiced at shielding. We know for a fact that Amys can't hold Egwene properly, so what more do you need?
Amys struggled, but she did hold the shield. Egwene pounded upon it for some time, and Amys says she got tired and couldn't have held it much longer. Egwene did not rip away the shield, as she should have been able to if she was as much stronger than Amys as you claim.
More importantly, Egwene is almost certainly stronger now than she was then. Yet, where Amys could only struggle and hold her shield when she was weaker, a single sister can hold her shield now?
And if the WO are so much worse at shielding, then this begs the question... why didn't their Aes Sedai captives try to escape? Egwene thought them linking only later. There was quite a long time when they could not link and would have had much difficulty holding the AS. We hear of no such thing. Verin too simply assumes the WO's shield, noting no weakness in them. She hardly would have, if the WO's shield's are much worse than the Reds.
The only possible conclusion is that Silviana is much closer in strength to Egwene than you suggest. It is not 20 vs. 50, it is 50 vs. 70.
She thought that in book 3. It's likely Moiraine thinks that both of the women are very strong and together can match an extremely strong foe. There's nothing wrong with that assertion. I myself think that Egwene has half of Rand's full potential, so I don't know why it's an issue for her to challenge his weaker Forsaken foes linked with Aviendha.
And she had seen Lanfear in the Rings in book 3?
Also, if Egwene and Avi, neither at full potential, can match a strong foe, how the hell can you then assert that Egwene at her full potential, plus Romanda and Lelaine, cannot match a strong foe? That quote you keep harping on is proved yet again to be totally wrong.
She's obviously straining herself. Rand says so.
So if she strains herself, she can match Rand? How much strain is she supposed to be undertaking?
We know they were not linked.
How? You magically divined RJ's intention? Provide some quotes man! This is getting frustrating.
Linking has an advantage - we know that already.
So? That isn't the point I'm discussing. Why is it a selective advantage?
I assume this is based on gateways? Very erroneous evidence if you ask me. There's a Talent, and several factors can mess it up like forming a circle.
Shielding is a Talent too! And we've actually seen someone with a Talent for shielding and no one is confirmed to have a Talent for Traveling.
And we've seen circles give shielding a much bigger advantage than Traveling. Egwene, in a circle and wielding a sa'angreal, can be stopped by a circle of 13. That's one heck of a shield.
So, I ask again... why can't three average sisters match Rand if three women too weak to be Accepted can?
Because they're weaker. Travelling is more than just a weave - see Asmodean's statements on gateway formation.
Wait... it is okay to use Traveling, despite it being more than just a weave, to compare the strength of not just men, but men and women too, but it needs to be thrown out of the window when linking is concerned because it screws up your list? That's the shoddiest, most hypocritical, line of argument I've ever seen.
Okay then - I also found a quote from Egwene in that book where she says that any of them could destroy Elaida.
Cool. As I said, we can make no definite conclusions on the comparative strengths of Egwene and Nynaeve by looking at how quickly they attained power.
How is 'only Nynaeve can match the Forsaken' and 'she can't challenge Moghedien' different?
Because match and challenge don't mean the same?
Very few people can match Warren Buffet's wealth. Doesn't mean they can't challenge him in a bidding war!
I don't think Moghedien is that weak. I'd put her at 70.
Really? When Darius Sedai pointed out that Nynaeve would have to be close to 80% of her potential when she matched Moggy, you said
That's a huge mass of assumptions. Moghedien was known for her weakness - she says so openly to the Dark One.
Yet, now, when it suits you, you say Moggy is 77.77% as strong as Nynaeve? Impressive double standards!
The cleansing
... right before she gained her full strength. Before that she was making leaps in strength that I showed you but you've ignored those.You've shown no such thing? I've shown you that Egwene exceeded Nynaeve in book 3. In book 4, Nynayeve matched Moggy, and we know nothing of how strong Egwene had gotten. Then, skip ahead, we know Egwene was at full strength in book 7, and Nynaeve has not reached hers in book 8 according to Elayne.
Book 11/12, Egwene is at full potential, and is accustomed to torrents of the One Power and Nynaeve is likely at hers, and thinks hardly anyone matches her strength.
None of this says anything about their comparative strengths.
Further, in book nine, all the AS like Sarietha and Careanne obey Elayne very quickly, and show a great deal of deference, yet Elayne, in her thoughts, says that she needs to defer to Nynaeve, but still feels okay with questioning her in front of the other AS. She never would do that if she did not have a perfect right to.
There's another thing I want to discuss with you.
According to your list, Aes Sedai span the strength range from 5 (which is the most ridiculous lower limit I've seen, by the way)to 25. This means roughly 11 to 12 of the 21 levels are bunched together from 0 to 25.
From 25 to 100, we have the other 9/10 levels. Which means the increase in strength between the earlier levels is lower than the increase in strength between the later ones.
Yet, you also had this to say...
Of course, I think it's wrong. If the strength levels are exponential it means that strength jumps more and more between levels, which is illogical. In fact, it shows very little common sense (I mean no insult, but for me it does).
By your own words, your placement of the Aes Sedai is illogical and lacking in common sense. Do you agree?
And don't say there are hidden levels after the Aes Sedai that compensate. There are only 21 levels. And by your own logic of equal difference between levels, there can be no more than roughly five levels between strengths 0 and 25. All the Aes Sedai and everyone else too weak to be AS cannot be fitted into 5 levels. Not even in your imaginary bell curve where the x-axis has the levels, rather than absolute strength.