Re: I support your view, with maybe a few comments to add...
Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/01/2010 04:37:56 PM
I'm tired of the Bell Curve, as I think the most likely answer is that RJ didn't actually know what a Bell Curve is in the true sense of the word.
Because a true Bell Curve simply does not fit the evidence so well presented by you in the above post.
Because a true Bell Curve simply does not fit the evidence so well presented by you in the above post.
The bell curve fits. It's a graph of channeler prevalence, not absolute strength. We should have mentioned that at the beginning of the debate, but I didn't know it until someone told me.
In any case, I used to think that the 13 sister rule provided a minimum level for a woman like Dagian, but since the increased precision of circles was presented to us in scenes like the Cleansing I no longer hold that view. Therefore, I agree that someone like Dagian might well be less than one thirteenth as powerful as Rand, or at the very least, less than one thirteenth of the power required to overwhelm him in physical terms (remembering that you have to be MUCH stronger than someone to shield them if they are already holding the Power).
I think one should be careful here. Daigian is the weakest Aes Sedai, but quite strong compared to almost one third of women. It's important to remember that only a fraction of women become Aes Sedai - and it's based largely on strength. Other Accepted and novices are sent away, or fail the tests. Daigian is a capable channeler - she managed to pass the test for the shawl anyway, and that requires combat.
Almost all of Egwene's novices are considerably weaker than Daigian, and yet Asmodean claims that thirteen of them would overwhelm most men. Therefore, even if they had a strength of 1 each, and a combined strength of 13, it seems like the circle advantage is massive and can shield men of relatively high strength, much like the gateway with thirteen women is so large.
As for Egwene, I also place her at about 50. At most.
The quote about Egwene not standing a chance against Moghedien's strength, and the quote about Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda being doubtful of overpowering a single male Forsaken pretty much seals it for me.
The quote about Egwene not standing a chance against Moghedien's strength, and the quote about Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda being doubtful of overpowering a single male Forsaken pretty much seals it for me.
I wouldn't go higher than 50 with Egwene either.
We have to remember that three Black Ajah sisters can overwhelm Moghedien, according to Liandrin (if I recall the name correctly).
Therefore, if 3 can do so to Moghedien, then it seems likely that two can do so to Egwene at her full potential.
Therefore, if 3 can do so to Moghedien, then it seems likely that two can do so to Egwene at her full potential.
Well we know that two can hold Egwene, and Liandrin is sure that three can overwhelm Moghedien. Moghedien is somewhere between Nynaeve and Egwene.
My only disagreement with your list is that I would place Nynaeve lower, at about 80. To me there is simply too much emphasis on Lanfear's great strength advantage over the other Forsaken for Nynaeve to be so close to her. I also don't think Alivia's "considerable strength advantage" over Nynaeve can be represented by a mere 10% on the strength scale.
I've only moved Nynaeve up, not the rest of the Forsaken. BS pretty much said that she's a woman of incredible strength. She's stronger than most of the female Forsaken. Lanfear might be her only competition, though I think Graendal is too. Was.
Furthermore, I don't believe Alivia equals Lanfear - the most powerful woman of the Age of Legends by a margin big enough to leave her no doubt that she is exceeded by no woman.
I have doubts. RJ doesn't have much respect for high strength levels - he sometimes just shoves teenagers like Talaan in, and he's made men like Logain/Taim as strong as AOL legends like Demandred and Sammael. It wouldn't surprise me if there is only one level above Nynaeve and it's occupied by Lanfear, Sharina and Alivia.
In any case, the top individuals leave a lot of room for debate. But what seems incontrovertible to me is the placing of lesser characters like Egwene, Moiraine and the average Aes Sedai.
I don't really know how this notion of Egwene being 60-70% as strong as Lanfear crept up on us. It is not supported by the weight of evidence and should not be seriously considered, in my view.
I don't really know how this notion of Egwene being 60-70% as strong as Lanfear crept up on us. It is not supported by the weight of evidence and should not be seriously considered, in my view.
It came up because of mathematical incompetence on both sides. The bell curve merely speaks about channeler prevalence. It does not display absolute strengths. Furthermore, outliers are possible especially when discussing the strongest people in the whole AOL who survived.
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Fan of Lanfear
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One Power strength - critical analysis of previous posts and some further ideas
03/01/2010 07:59:24 AM
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I support your view, with maybe a few comments to add...
03/01/2010 02:58:05 PM
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Re: I support your view, with maybe a few comments to add...
03/01/2010 04:37:56 PM
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where is this phantom quote of Egwene "not standing a chance"
03/01/2010 05:20:20 PM
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Here's the real quote
03/01/2010 05:38:59 PM
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Well that quote perfectly illustrates the skewed way in which you interpret the evidence...
03/01/2010 06:18:22 PM
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I also think the quote is specific
03/01/2010 06:34:38 PM
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Skill not Strength is the key that and the potential that another FS was with her
03/01/2010 06:51:46 PM
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Bah
03/01/2010 07:13:01 PM
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Who's arguing that?
03/01/2010 07:34:21 PM
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What ARE you arguing?
03/01/2010 07:43:06 PM
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That there is far more to strength in her quote!
03/01/2010 08:05:20 PM
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Re: That there is far more to strength in her quote!
04/01/2010 09:40:05 AM
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and where do I ever say Elayne is only a small step below Moghedien?
04/01/2010 03:08:37 PM
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You more than imply it with your own list
04/01/2010 03:39:06 PM
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and you are fixated on simple strength to the exclusion of everything else
04/01/2010 05:05:54 PM
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Re: and you are fixated on simple strength to the exclusion of everything else
04/01/2010 06:46:45 PM
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Tiny Unimportant Objection to "Bell Curve" Point
03/01/2010 03:09:55 PM
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Re: Tiny Unimportant Objection to "Bell Curve" Point
03/01/2010 04:39:25 PM
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I've got a slightly revised opinion than my last post
03/01/2010 05:16:39 PM
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Re: I've got a slightly revised opinion than my last post
03/01/2010 06:31:09 PM
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It's actually not that complicated ... simple math actually
03/01/2010 07:08:52 PM
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Yes, but to think that RJ put that much effort into it is improbable
03/01/2010 07:19:13 PM
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I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
03/01/2010 07:56:17 PM
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Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
04/01/2010 09:50:38 AM
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Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
04/01/2010 03:26:10 PM
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Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
04/01/2010 03:52:19 PM
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You are talking out of both sides of your mouth
04/01/2010 05:09:15 PM
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Dude
04/01/2010 06:21:28 PM
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Dude, please go back to Fionwe's post
04/01/2010 06:35:03 PM
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A reply...
03/01/2010 06:02:33 PM
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The Tower sample is skewed allright, but to the upper side of the strength range...
03/01/2010 06:36:45 PM
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Re: A reply...
03/01/2010 07:09:55 PM
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I think distance is related to Strength
03/01/2010 07:21:46 PM
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amusing side note
04/01/2010 05:22:39 AM
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Which is exactly what I envisage the AOL distribution to have looked like...
04/01/2010 07:03:51 AM
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Re: Which is exactly what I envisage the AOL distribution to have looked like...
04/01/2010 03:29:47 PM
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It may sound silly, but did you look at One Power values in the Wheel of Time CCG?
05/01/2010 12:56:41 AM
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Re: It may sound silly, but did you look at One Power values in the Wheel of Time CCG?
05/01/2010 07:33:21 AM
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