Active Users:1217 Time:23/11/2024 07:16:15 AM
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules
No it does not. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM
I'm being generous. Because if Egwene plus Lelaine and Romanda cannot match a male Forsaken, then they should be EVEN LOWER on the strength scale than I am arguing.

The truth is that AT MOST Egwene plus Lelaine and Romanda can match a male Forsaken. Egwene was far from certain that they could. In fact, her actual words were something along the lines of "She doubts that herself, Lelaine and Romanda (the three strongest Aes Sedai in the camp) could match a male Forsaken.

And where is it stated that this was a strength issue? Moiraine estimated that Egwene and Aviendha, well before they reached peak strength, could match one of the female Forsaken like Graendal. How does that fit in with your model?
And how do you blindly assume Egwene is discussing strength? It certainly seems that she and Avi together felt they could challenge Lanfear, and they were about to try. Her superior skill meant that they got their asses handed to them. Why can't Egwene's statement mean that even with the great strength advantage she would get by linking with L and R, she still wouldn't be skilled enough to beat a male Forsaken?
As we see, of course, Verin, Shalon and Kumira could beat back Graendal, who is insanely strong and skilled. Egwene underestimates herself, by your model or mine.
Now, on Darius's list, Egwene plus Romanda on their OWN would exceed Lanfear. since Egwene is on 80 and Romanda is on 50 it means that together they are at 130, which is far greater than Lanfear who is at 100. Even after a 10% linking loss they are still stronger than Lanfear. And that's without even adding Lelaine into the mix.

I'd place Egwene at 70, but either way, you're ignoring skill.
Even with Egwene at 50 and L and R at 25, they still reach strength 90, and also have a precision advantage. Even by your model, they should easily be able to hand most of the male Forsaken their asses. Yet Egwene is doubtful. The reason is she doubts her skill, not her strength.
So, if Lanfear is comparable to a male Forsaken, then Darius's model falls apart completely. ESPECIALLY if Egwene plus Lelaine Plus Romanda combined are still weaker than a male Forsaken.

So I am being generous by giving those three women the benefit of the doubt when reading Egwene's statement. And even by doing this, Darius's model is disproven.

No it isn't. All you've done is poke wider holes into your own model.
The simple point is that if Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda together would be hard pressed to match a male Forsaken, then how can Egwene and Romanda (without Lelaine) exceed Lanfear?

They can match any forsaken as far as strength goes. Skill is another matter.
They cannot, and that is one of the many indications that Darius has placed modern Aes Sedai far too high up on the ladder. And this has a domino effect on his placings, because if you drop the likes of Moiraine and Lelaine, then you have to drop Egwene as well. Which is the correct thing to do, because Egwene is not close to 80% of Lanfear's strength. It is laughable to suggest it.

She is in fact around 50% of Lanfear's strength. THAT is the model that fits the evidence best.

No it doesn't at all. If she's strength 50, then the average woman is as strong as her, which is the most ridiculous statement I've seen.
Reply to message
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1263 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 444 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 665 Views
Few glaring errors... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 848 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 820 Views
You don't get it, do you... Shannow - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 751 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? fionwe1987 - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 639 Views
That only strengthens my point. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 686 Views
No it does not. fionwe1987 - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 735 Views
What you are missing is that darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 693 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 719 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 697 Views
Not correct... Shannow - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 786 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 684 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 666 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 625 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH redhand - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 744 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 784 Views
Corrections Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 798 Views
No... Shannow - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 689 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 569 Views
Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler darius_sedai - 25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM 655 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 670 Views
Perhaps... Phelix - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 738 Views
I've always hated bell curves Ryan - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 687 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 679 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 562 Views
Why? Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 693 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 609 Views
Always go back to the evidence... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 768 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 680 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 652 Views
it's addressed below darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 664 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments darius_sedai - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 699 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 672 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... fionwe1987 - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 700 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 659 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. Phelix - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 591 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 709 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 708 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 802 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 699 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 411 Views
Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM 601 Views
It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM 683 Views
Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM 721 Views
Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 402 Views
LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM 725 Views
Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM 660 Views
The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM 819 Views
Beonin's Gateway darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:30:25 PM 669 Views
No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect! Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM 639 Views
Nope, Beonin shouldn't be that strong! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:48:30 PM 635 Views
This is true, however... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 725 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 962 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 757 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 606 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 644 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 375 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 670 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 655 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 646 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 386 Views
No more than yours is! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 687 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 591 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 731 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 664 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM* Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM 354 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 646 Views
Goodness Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 691 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 638 Views
Since you love Wiki so much darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 650 Views
No you are not Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 690 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 712 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 765 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 618 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 646 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 693 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 644 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 645 Views
darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 951 Views
The pathos of Darius Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 670 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) knightmarea7x - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 590 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 657 Views
Back to Messageboard Post New Thread Search Help Stats Rules

Reply to Message

Block Quote Paragraph Quote
Formatting
Smiley Codes