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Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... Shannow Send a noteboard - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
which makes it more difficult for her to perform the specific weave for Traveling ... she even states in that POV that she is certain she could make a larger Gateway if she used her original Weave!

The Path of Daggers
To Keep the Bargain

The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her.


So this is an exception to the rule. A minority case, else the channelers in the books wouldn't use the rule in the first place. It is never suggested that Egwene suffers from such a "secondary weave" problem. So her 8 foot gateway is a reliable indicator of her strength.

And when Egwene/Siuan says that most Aes Sedai are not strong enough to weave a gateway large enough to walk through, they are not referring to secondary weave problems, they are referring to strength.

The point is, in GENERAL, gateway size is correlated sufficiently to strength that the channelers THEMSELVES use it as an indication of comparative strength. It is not I who dreamed this correlation up out of nowhere. The channelers themselves use it as a rule.

But even more importantly, this is not the central pillar of my argument. It is merely one of MANY corrobarating bits of evidence. In other words, there is a general rule that stronger channelers make larger gateways. So if my model places various channelers in various positions, it is greatly boosted by the fact that these positions also happen to conform to the gateway/strength rule.

But I do not place a modern Aes Sedai at 25 effective strength based on her gateway size. No, I place her there because she is half as strong as Egwene. And I place Ewgene at 50, because Egwene plus Aviendha are manhandled contemptuously by Lanfear, and Egwene plus Elayne are handled like kittens by a underdeveloped Rand, and Egwene herself says that she plus two Moiraine strength channelers would barely match a male Forsaken.

Then, when the gateway rule ALSO confirms these placings, you know you are right in the majority of cases.

It is the WEIGHT of evidence, not one single item, that puts Egwene at 50.

Could you provide me with one solid piece of evidence that places Egwene at 80% of Lanfear's strength?
This message last edited by Shannow on 23/12/2009 at 06:02:34 PM
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I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1259 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 440 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 660 Views
Few glaring errors... - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 844 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 816 Views
You don't get it, do you... - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 747 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 635 Views
That only strengthens my point. - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 680 Views
No it does not. - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 730 Views
What you are missing is that - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 689 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 715 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 692 Views
Not correct... - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 783 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 680 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 663 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 619 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 741 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 780 Views
Corrections - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 794 Views
No... - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 685 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 567 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 667 Views
Perhaps... - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 732 Views
I've always hated bell curves - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 683 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 675 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 559 Views
Why? - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 689 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 605 Views
Always go back to the evidence... - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 762 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 675 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 648 Views
it's addressed below - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 660 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 696 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 668 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 697 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 655 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 587 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 703 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 704 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 797 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 694 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 409 Views
This is true, however... - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 721 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 957 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 753 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 603 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 640 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 373 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 667 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 651 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 641 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 384 Views
No more than yours is! - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 683 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 587 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 725 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 660 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 642 Views
Goodness - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 686 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 634 Views
Since you love Wiki so much - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 645 Views
No you are not - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 687 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 707 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 762 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 615 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 643 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 689 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 640 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 642 Views
- 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 947 Views
The pathos of Darius - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 667 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 586 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 652 Views

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