Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
which makes it more difficult for her to perform the specific weave for Traveling ... she even states in that POV that she is certain she could make a larger Gateway if she used her original Weave!
The Path of Daggers
To Keep the Bargain
The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her.
The Path of Daggers
To Keep the Bargain
The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength, yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha’s. She was sure she could have woven a larger, as large as Elayne could, using the weaves she had made without thought while trying to escape Rand al’Thor what seemed a very long time ago, but no matter how often she tried, only scraps came back to her.
So this is an exception to the rule. A minority case, else the channelers in the books wouldn't use the rule in the first place. It is never suggested that Egwene suffers from such a "secondary weave" problem. So her 8 foot gateway is a reliable indicator of her strength.
And when Egwene/Siuan says that most Aes Sedai are not strong enough to weave a gateway large enough to walk through, they are not referring to secondary weave problems, they are referring to strength.
The point is, in GENERAL, gateway size is correlated sufficiently to strength that the channelers THEMSELVES use it as an indication of comparative strength. It is not I who dreamed this correlation up out of nowhere. The channelers themselves use it as a rule.
But even more importantly, this is not the central pillar of my argument. It is merely one of MANY corrobarating bits of evidence. In other words, there is a general rule that stronger channelers make larger gateways. So if my model places various channelers in various positions, it is greatly boosted by the fact that these positions also happen to conform to the gateway/strength rule.
But I do not place a modern Aes Sedai at 25 effective strength based on her gateway size. No, I place her there because she is half as strong as Egwene. And I place Ewgene at 50, because Egwene plus Aviendha are manhandled contemptuously by Lanfear, and Egwene plus Elayne are handled like kittens by a underdeveloped Rand, and Egwene herself says that she plus two Moiraine strength channelers would barely match a male Forsaken.
Then, when the gateway rule ALSO confirms these placings, you know you are right in the majority of cases.
It is the WEIGHT of evidence, not one single item, that puts Egwene at 50.
Could you provide me with one solid piece of evidence that places Egwene at 80% of Lanfear's strength?
This message last edited by Shannow on 23/12/2009 at 06:02:34 PM
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
- 1259 Views
Few glaring errors...
20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM
- 844 Views
Re: Few glaring errors...
21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM
- 816 Views
You don't get it, do you...
21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM
- 747 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
- 635 Views
What you are missing is that
21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM
- 689 Views
I'm not missing it at all..
21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
- 715 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text
22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
- 692 Views
Not correct...
22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
- 783 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence
22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM
- 680 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong.
22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM
- 663 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy
22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM
- 619 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH
20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM
- 741 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range...
20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM
- 780 Views
Corrections
21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM
- 794 Views
No...
21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM
- 685 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM*
21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM
- 567 Views
Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler
25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM
- 652 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers
21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM
- 667 Views
Perhaps...
21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM
- 732 Views
I've always hated bell curves
21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM
- 683 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average...
21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM
- 675 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve
22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM
- 559 Views
Why?
22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM
- 689 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the
22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM
- 605 Views
Always go back to the evidence...
22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM
- 762 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this
23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM
- 675 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments
24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM
- 696 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem
29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM
- 668 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
- 703 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
- 704 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM
- 797 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength
23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM
- 694 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM*
23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM
- 409 Views
Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent?
23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM
- 596 Views
It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough...
23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM
- 680 Views
Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too
23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM
- 716 Views
Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM*
23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
- 399 Views
LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing
23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM
- 721 Views
Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength...
23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM
- 657 Views
The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work
23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM
- 815 Views
No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect!
23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM
- 635 Views
This is true, however...
23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM
- 721 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
- 957 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation
23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM
- 753 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
- 603 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling
23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM
- 640 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM*
23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM
- 373 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then?
23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM
- 667 Views
And there you have it...Thank you.
23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM
- 651 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine
23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM
- 641 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM*
23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM
- 384 Views
No more than yours is!
23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM
- 683 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM
- 660 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM*
26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM
- 351 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM
- 642 Views
Goodness
31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM
- 686 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author
31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM
- 634 Views
No you are not
31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM
- 687 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this
26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM
- 615 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution
26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM
- 643 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't)
31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM
- 689 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution
31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM
- 640 Views