Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
traveling *is* still a type of talent. Even people that are considered strong in the one power can have difficulties opening up those 4X4pace gateways, when others of the same strength are able to do it with ease. In example: Aviendha now has to use her *entire* strength to open up a gateway that is still smaller than what Elayne is able to create. Now, we know that Aviendha is able to travel normally, without using her entire strength, but she completely forgot how to create the weave she used to instaport to Seandar/Seanchan.
This proves to me that TRAVELING, i.e. the standard weave, is something able to be done by everyone strong enough, and much like the ACTs, some people do better with it than others, even though those that do poorly can be just as intelligent. To go along with this metaphor, Aviendha's hastily erected weave, say the "SATs" of traveling, worked very well for her and would probably work well for several others (we haven't met any specifically) that have problems with the "ACT" method.
The main problem with 3rd age travelers comes from their lack of innovation; most of the Aes Sedai refuse to think anything is possible if they don't already have a weave (or they say it is some lost marvel, never to be seen again, from the AoL). In the Age of Legends, where research was paramount, there might have been as many versions of the traveling weave as there was numbers of channelers strong enough to implement it. Where does it say in the text that all of the forsaken use the *exact* same weave? As long as the basic method of female/male is intact (folding the pattern/boring a hole in the pattern) then the methodology is up to the creativity of the weaver.
thoughts?
This proves to me that TRAVELING, i.e. the standard weave, is something able to be done by everyone strong enough, and much like the ACTs, some people do better with it than others, even though those that do poorly can be just as intelligent. To go along with this metaphor, Aviendha's hastily erected weave, say the "SATs" of traveling, worked very well for her and would probably work well for several others (we haven't met any specifically) that have problems with the "ACT" method.
The main problem with 3rd age travelers comes from their lack of innovation; most of the Aes Sedai refuse to think anything is possible if they don't already have a weave (or they say it is some lost marvel, never to be seen again, from the AoL). In the Age of Legends, where research was paramount, there might have been as many versions of the traveling weave as there was numbers of channelers strong enough to implement it. Where does it say in the text that all of the forsaken use the *exact* same weave? As long as the basic method of female/male is intact (folding the pattern/boring a hole in the pattern) then the methodology is up to the creativity of the weaver.
thoughts?
The size of the gateway is linked to her potential.
Aviendha and Elayne are of similar strength And Aviendha says that Elayne can make the same size gateway that Aviendha can, only that Elayne uses only a part of her strength for it while Aviendha has to use most of her strength for it.
But the sizes of their gateways are the same. Therefore, gateway size remains an accurate gauge of the channeler's potential strength. They just may use different proportions of their potential to make it.
Same with Flinn. He states in tGS that he isn't as good at making gateways as one of the other Ashaman. But his gateway is still the largest of all the Ashaman with Rand in PoD. So it merely means that Flinn uses more of his strength to make his gateway. But the maximum size of his gateway is not diminished because of it.
Bottomline, the potential strength/gateway size correlation is a solid one, and therefore Rand, Logain, Egwene and others all refer to it as a clear cut rule. The larger your gateway, the stronger you are in the Power. How MUCH of your strength you use to make that gateway does not change the fact that your gateway size and potential strength are correlated.
This message last edited by Shannow on 23/12/2009 at 05:31:03 PM
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
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Few glaring errors...
20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM
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Re: Few glaring errors...
21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM
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You don't get it, do you...
21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM
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Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
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What you are missing is that
21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM
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I'm not missing it at all..
21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
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Let's try matching that with the actual text
22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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Not correct...
22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
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Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence
22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM
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You're reading the evidence wrong.
22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM
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RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy
22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM
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I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH
20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM
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Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range...
20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM
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Corrections
21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM
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No...
21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM
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True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM*
21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM
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Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler
25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM
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yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers
21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM
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Perhaps...
21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM
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I've always hated bell curves
21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM
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The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average...
21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM
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and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve
22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM
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Why?
22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM
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Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the
22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM
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Always go back to the evidence...
22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM
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I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this
23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM
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I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments
24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM
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And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem
29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM
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I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
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Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
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Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM
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I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength
23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM
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How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM*
23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM
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Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent?
23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM
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It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough...
23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM
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Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too
23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM
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Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM*
23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
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LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing
23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM
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Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength...
23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM
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The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work
23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM
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No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect!
23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM
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This is true, however...
23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM
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Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
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Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation
23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM
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Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
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I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling
23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM
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Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM*
23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM
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Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then?
23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM
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And there you have it...Thank you.
23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM
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And linked with Romanda and Lelaine
23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM
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Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM*
23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM
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No more than yours is!
23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM*
26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM
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Goodness
31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM
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I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author
31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM
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No you are not
31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM
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Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this
26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM
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The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution
26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM
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And RJ knew his maths (and you don't)
31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM
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I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution
31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM
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