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Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... Shannow Send a noteboard - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
For the obvious reasons that so many channelers die of natural causes and etc that it's rare for an overall reflection of what an 'average' is is very difficult to achieve.

For example, we don't know if being average in strength is synonymous with having this strength level occur more frequently in a given population; we know that many of the women who come to the Tower are quite weak, but they represent a subset of the overall population. I think it is impossible to extrapolate from that.

I'd also say it is impossible for us to really figure out effectiveness from looking at our virtual numbers and RJ's most likely 21 level list - I say this because Asmodean, for being an unremarkable Forsaken, actually seemed very dextruos and in many ways possessed of more dexterity than the more powerful males during his battle with Rand. It's actually strange to me how often this is the case in the series, but effectiveness doesn't really seem to go hand in hand with strength in the Power; it is often the stronger channelers who rely on brute strength while the weaker channelers demonstrate the most mastery. I like the attempt you made to quantify this, though, but I think it would drive you insane to try to calculate Aviendha's comparable strength to Rand using the half-mile long furrow in the ground her fireball burnt.

I'm of the honest opinion that RJ didn't have a clear system in this regards in the same way other writers have: one of my critiques is that he often gives the appearance of having detail and complexity, but when you review his writing and passages from the story, it's all a meandering collection of generalized statements. He wanted maximum freedom as a writer, and often he did this by attaching caveats to any informational detail a reader could use to figure out a large-scale truth. You can't extrapolate anything from the size of Aviendha's gateways, for example, because there are at least two factors that make exceptions to the general "size of gateway indicates overall strength".

I'd almost say that it is as simple as "Rand is much stronger than the average channeler by an unknown order of magnitude neutralized somewhat by the possibility that he could be killed by a crossbow bolt to his back" and leave it at that


Rand himself explains to Ituralde that if the Ashaman is strong enough, he can make a gateway large enough to fit a wagon through.

Logain says that he judges Rand's comparative strength by his comparative gateway size. That's as clear a rule as you can wish for.

Flinn is the strongest Ashaman with Rand in PoD, and Rand then notices by coincidence that Flinn's gateway also happens to be the largest.

Perrin notes that Neald's gateway gets larger as time progresses (corresponding to his increase in strength)

Aes Sedai make gateways dependent on their strength.

The rule is established. That there are exceptions is not in dispute. But the rule corresponds to reality so strongly that unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, gateway size and strength can be seen as correlating perfectly in the vast majority of cases.
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I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1260 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 440 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 661 Views
Few glaring errors... - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 845 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 816 Views
You don't get it, do you... - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 748 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 635 Views
That only strengthens my point. - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 680 Views
No it does not. - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 731 Views
What you are missing is that - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 690 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 716 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 693 Views
Not correct... - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 783 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 681 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 663 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 620 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 741 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 781 Views
Corrections - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 795 Views
No... - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 686 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 568 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 668 Views
Perhaps... - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 733 Views
I've always hated bell curves - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 684 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 676 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 559 Views
Why? - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 690 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 606 Views
Always go back to the evidence... - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 763 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 676 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 649 Views
it's addressed below - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 660 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 697 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 668 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 697 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 655 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 587 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 704 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 705 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 797 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 695 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 410 Views
This is true, however... - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 722 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 957 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 754 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 603 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 641 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 374 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 667 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 651 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 642 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 384 Views
No more than yours is! - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 683 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 588 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 726 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 660 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 642 Views
Goodness - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 686 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 634 Views
Since you love Wiki so much - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 645 Views
No you are not - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 687 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 708 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 764 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 615 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 643 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 690 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 641 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 642 Views
- 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 947 Views
The pathos of Darius - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 667 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 587 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 653 Views

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