Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
For the obvious reasons that so many channelers die of natural causes and etc that it's rare for an overall reflection of what an 'average' is is very difficult to achieve.
For example, we don't know if being average in strength is synonymous with having this strength level occur more frequently in a given population; we know that many of the women who come to the Tower are quite weak, but they represent a subset of the overall population. I think it is impossible to extrapolate from that.
I'd also say it is impossible for us to really figure out effectiveness from looking at our virtual numbers and RJ's most likely 21 level list - I say this because Asmodean, for being an unremarkable Forsaken, actually seemed very dextruos and in many ways possessed of more dexterity than the more powerful males during his battle with Rand. It's actually strange to me how often this is the case in the series, but effectiveness doesn't really seem to go hand in hand with strength in the Power; it is often the stronger channelers who rely on brute strength while the weaker channelers demonstrate the most mastery. I like the attempt you made to quantify this, though, but I think it would drive you insane to try to calculate Aviendha's comparable strength to Rand using the half-mile long furrow in the ground her fireball burnt.
I'm of the honest opinion that RJ didn't have a clear system in this regards in the same way other writers have: one of my critiques is that he often gives the appearance of having detail and complexity, but when you review his writing and passages from the story, it's all a meandering collection of generalized statements. He wanted maximum freedom as a writer, and often he did this by attaching caveats to any informational detail a reader could use to figure out a large-scale truth. You can't extrapolate anything from the size of Aviendha's gateways, for example, because there are at least two factors that make exceptions to the general "size of gateway indicates overall strength".
I'd almost say that it is as simple as "Rand is much stronger than the average channeler by an unknown order of magnitude neutralized somewhat by the possibility that he could be killed by a crossbow bolt to his back" and leave it at that
For example, we don't know if being average in strength is synonymous with having this strength level occur more frequently in a given population; we know that many of the women who come to the Tower are quite weak, but they represent a subset of the overall population. I think it is impossible to extrapolate from that.
I'd also say it is impossible for us to really figure out effectiveness from looking at our virtual numbers and RJ's most likely 21 level list - I say this because Asmodean, for being an unremarkable Forsaken, actually seemed very dextruos and in many ways possessed of more dexterity than the more powerful males during his battle with Rand. It's actually strange to me how often this is the case in the series, but effectiveness doesn't really seem to go hand in hand with strength in the Power; it is often the stronger channelers who rely on brute strength while the weaker channelers demonstrate the most mastery. I like the attempt you made to quantify this, though, but I think it would drive you insane to try to calculate Aviendha's comparable strength to Rand using the half-mile long furrow in the ground her fireball burnt.
I'm of the honest opinion that RJ didn't have a clear system in this regards in the same way other writers have: one of my critiques is that he often gives the appearance of having detail and complexity, but when you review his writing and passages from the story, it's all a meandering collection of generalized statements. He wanted maximum freedom as a writer, and often he did this by attaching caveats to any informational detail a reader could use to figure out a large-scale truth. You can't extrapolate anything from the size of Aviendha's gateways, for example, because there are at least two factors that make exceptions to the general "size of gateway indicates overall strength".
I'd almost say that it is as simple as "Rand is much stronger than the average channeler by an unknown order of magnitude neutralized somewhat by the possibility that he could be killed by a crossbow bolt to his back" and leave it at that
Rand himself explains to Ituralde that if the Ashaman is strong enough, he can make a gateway large enough to fit a wagon through.
Logain says that he judges Rand's comparative strength by his comparative gateway size. That's as clear a rule as you can wish for.
Flinn is the strongest Ashaman with Rand in PoD, and Rand then notices by coincidence that Flinn's gateway also happens to be the largest.
Perrin notes that Neald's gateway gets larger as time progresses (corresponding to his increase in strength)
Aes Sedai make gateways dependent on their strength.
The rule is established. That there are exceptions is not in dispute. But the rule corresponds to reality so strongly that unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, gateway size and strength can be seen as correlating perfectly in the vast majority of cases.
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
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Few glaring errors...
20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM
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Re: Few glaring errors...
21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM
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You don't get it, do you...
21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM
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Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
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What you are missing is that
21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM
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I'm not missing it at all..
21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
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Let's try matching that with the actual text
22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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Not correct...
22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
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Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence
22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM
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You're reading the evidence wrong.
22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM
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RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy
22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM
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I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH
20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM
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Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range...
20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM
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Corrections
21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM
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No...
21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM
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True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM*
21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM
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Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler
25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM
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yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers
21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM
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Perhaps...
21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM
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I've always hated bell curves
21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM
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The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average...
21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM
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and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve
22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM
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Why?
22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM
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Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the
22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM
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Always go back to the evidence...
22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM
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I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this
23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM
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I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments
24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM
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And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem
29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM
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I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
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Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
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Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM
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I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength
23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM
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How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM*
23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM
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Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent?
23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM
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It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough...
23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM
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Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too
23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM
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Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM*
23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
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LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing
23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM
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Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength...
23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM
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The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work
23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM
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No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect!
23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM
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This is true, however...
23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM
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Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
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Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation
23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM
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Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
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I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling
23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM
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Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM*
23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM
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Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then?
23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM
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And there you have it...Thank you.
23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM
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And linked with Romanda and Lelaine
23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM
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Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM*
23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM
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No more than yours is!
23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM*
26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM
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Goodness
31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM
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I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author
31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM
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No you are not
31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM
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Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this
26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM
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The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution
26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM
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And RJ knew his maths (and you don't)
31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM
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I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution
31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM
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