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Not correct... Shannow Send a noteboard - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
First let me say that you have a gift for hyperbole ... the BWB says this about Channelers:

"The majority were fairly weak" ... nothing about the VAST majority being VERY weak ... the entire point in that quote is to show that Strong Channelers were not all that common, but that they did miraculous things, things like rediscover Traveling and Cuendillar, or make ter'angreal etc...

Another example of how strong Egwene is in relation to the Forsaken...

In tFoH she rows out to see the Sea Folk in Cairhien, where she ends up shielding a WF (or possibly 2), and lifting 3 people into the air before hitting some maximum height (and notes that she had the Strength to go higher, but it was not possible). When you estimate 125lb per person (being conservative) that's 375lbs PLUS a shield she's just woven... okay, what's the big deal...

Let's look at Nynaeve in WH, she tells Rand that she cannot lift both Rand and Lan at the same time, she notes that the Well she is using has enough of the OP to accomplish the task since it would be just over half to saidar to accomplish the feat. What can Rand and Lan weigh combined? 450lbs?

That seems to make Egwene in the ball park of 85% of Nynaeve's strength, so maybe about 80% of Lanfear. If you have an example in the text where Egwene cannot perform a task very closely to Nynaeve please share it with me, but thus far in the series I've seen no reason to believe that her level is in any way "average".

As for Lanfear vs. E/R/L, she wouldn't be as strong as the 3 of them! Semirhage can't be that far below Lanfear and she was held by 3 AS that are all far weaker than them! There is no way Lanfear is more than a match in Raw strength for the 3 strongest AS if Semirhage is not a match for 3 "average" ones.

Lanfear can certainly accomplish any OP related task that Rand could, but she would not have his Raw strength, only be as effective when you factor in dexterity. My system was devised to illustrate men and women on the same "effective" level do not have the same actual strength, nothing more.


How can you use the dexterity advantage in Lanfear's case, but not in Egwene's circle's case. They are both examples of females matching males. Therefore, the Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine circle ALSO have the female dexterity advantage over a male Forsaken. So in other words, if Lanfear is able to match a male Forsaken thanks to the female dexterity advantage, and if Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda can match a male Forsaken thanks to the female dexterity advantage, then it means Lanfear must be able to match Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda. And since the female dexterity advantage plays no role when females face females, it means that in RAW STRENGTH, Lanfear must equal Egwene plus Lelaine plus Romanda.

It's like reading in the text that Mike Tyson is as strong as Arnold Swarzenegger, and reading somewhere else that Hulk Hogan is also as strong as Arnold Swarzenegger, and therefore, you can deduce that Mike Tyson and Hulk Hogan must be of similar strength.

Since Egwene's circle can match a male Forsaken, and Lanfear can match a male Forsaken, it means Egwene's circle and Lanfear must be of similar strength. The dexterity advantage is needed in both Lanfear and Egwene's circle's instances in order to match a male Forsaken. And therefore, when they face each other the dexterity advantage is neutralized and their raw comparative strength must be similar.

As for Semirhage's shield being held by 3 Aes Sedai, it is clearly stated in the books that you don't have to be as strong as someone to hold a shield on them once they are cut off from the source. You can in fact be much weaker and still hold a shield quite comfortably. So the fact that 3 Aes Sedai hold Semirhage means that she is probably as strong as 4 or 5 of them linked if she is already holding the source.

In the same way, the 2 Black Ajah sisters are able to hold a Shield over Nynaeve in CoS despite the fact that they are not close to her strength, even if they are linked. Remember they are two average strength Aes Sedai at best. And yet, Egwene is stronger than two very strong Aes Sedai. And in turn, Nynaeve is much stronger than Egwene. So there is no way that two Black sisters can match Nynaeve. Yet if they shield her before she holds the Power, they can maintain the shield despite being much weaker than her. In the same way, Rand can be held shielded by far fewer women than it takes to cut him off from the Source in the first place.

Lastly, the weight comparison is based on complete guesswork. Rand is 6 foot 6 inches tall according to RJ. And Lan isn't much smaller than him. How big is a Sea Folk Windfinder? We don't know. So that is certainly not good evidence of anything. Plus we don't know what the physical limits on lifting weight with Air is. It may well be limited in the same way that building a bridge of Air is limited.

In any case, I think the above makes it clear that Lanfear HAS to be as strong as Egwene plus Lelaine plus Romanda, if she can match a male Forsaken in the same way that Egwene's circle can.
This message last edited by Shannow on 22/12/2009 at 03:50:35 PM
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I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1262 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 442 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 664 Views
Few glaring errors... - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 847 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 819 Views
You don't get it, do you... - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 750 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 639 Views
That only strengthens my point. - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 686 Views
No it does not. - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 734 Views
What you are missing is that - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 693 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 719 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 696 Views
Not correct... - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 786 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 683 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 665 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 624 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 744 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 783 Views
Corrections - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 798 Views
No... - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 688 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 569 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 670 Views
Perhaps... - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 737 Views
I've always hated bell curves - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 687 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 679 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 562 Views
Why? - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 692 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 608 Views
Always go back to the evidence... - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 767 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 680 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 652 Views
it's addressed below - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 664 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 699 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 671 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 699 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 659 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 591 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 708 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 707 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 801 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 698 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 410 Views
This is true, however... - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 724 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 961 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 756 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 605 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 643 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 374 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 670 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 655 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 645 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 386 Views
No more than yours is! - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 687 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 590 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 731 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 663 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 645 Views
Goodness - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 691 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 637 Views
Since you love Wiki so much - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 649 Views
No you are not - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 690 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 711 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 765 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 617 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 645 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 692 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 643 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 645 Views
- 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 951 Views
The pathos of Darius - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 670 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 589 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 656 Views

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