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I'm not missing it at all.. Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
a woman of lesser strength is as effective as a man with greater strength ... in effect Lanfear can accomplish anything Rand can, but she doesn't have his raw strength ... which is why I weighted the scale. Egwene cannot be both 50% of Lanfear and as strong as Amys and Melaine combined without making Amys and Melaine weaker than the evidence shows us.

By my scale Egwene is as effective as a man much stronger than her, but in raw strength she would be the equivalent of a man who was closer to a level 50. In terms of Raw strength across both sexes that puts her about half way up the Bell curve, which is significant for a woman, if not a man.


You have come to the exact crossroads that you need to pass through in order to arrive at the correct solution. Namely that Amys and Melaine must be FAR lower down the scale than you have so far tried to place them.

Let's reduce this to Egwene and Lanfear for simpicity's sake. Egwene's effective strength is 80 out of 100, and Lanfear's is 100 out of 100. If you wish to multiply their strength by 4 (as per your unnecessarily compicated system) then Egwene goes up to 320, and Lanfear to 400. Either way, Egwene's EFFECTIVE strength is 80% as great as Lanfear's effective strength.

So, if you place Egwene this high, then how on earth can Lanfear still be as strong as Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelaine? Because Lanfear's EFFECTIVE strength must be equal to that of a top male Forsaken. And yet, in your model, she is outgunned by about 70% by a circle consisting of Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda.

Lanfear at 100 effective strength has no chance against Egwene's circle at 170-180 in strength.

The correct answer is to drop Egwene to 50, and Romanda, Lelaine and Moiraine to 30. Then it all makes perfect sense. And all the evidence in the books fits like a glove. As soon as you place Egwene higher than 50% of Lanfear's strength, the entire model starts coming apart.

Remember, Lanfear was the top level of the Bell Curve in the Age of Legends. And this Bell Curve had a higher average and therefore a higher upper limit than the modern one. In fact, based on the above, Egwene would be roughly as strong as the average woman in the Age of Legends. Meaning that she would be half as strong as Lanfear.

Channelers today are weaker than channelers in the Age of Legends. That is commonly stated. Furthermore, RJ says that while in the AoL 3% of the population could channel, today it is closer to 1%. The channeling pool has shrunk, and the average strength of channelers has decreased along with it.

So while Egwene is far above the average strength on the Third Age Bell Curve, the curve that applies to the Forsaken is a different one. It is in fact the one that represented the Age of Legends channeling population.

And on that curve, Egwene is only an average strength channeler (50% as strong as Lanfear) and Moiraine is about 30% as strong as Lanfear.
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I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1497 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 559 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 869 Views
Few glaring errors... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 1061 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 1007 Views
You don't get it, do you... Shannow - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 982 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? fionwe1987 - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 855 Views
That only strengthens my point. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 921 Views
No it does not. fionwe1987 - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 967 Views
What you are missing is that darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 925 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 952 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 914 Views
Not correct... Shannow - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 996 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 893 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 900 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 894 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH redhand - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 972 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 998 Views
Corrections Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 1036 Views
No... Shannow - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 923 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 677 Views
Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler darius_sedai - 25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM 898 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 870 Views
Perhaps... Phelix - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 973 Views
I've always hated bell curves Ryan - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 897 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 929 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 765 Views
Why? Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 914 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 813 Views
Always go back to the evidence... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 969 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 869 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 870 Views
it's addressed below darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 873 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments darius_sedai - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 906 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 889 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... fionwe1987 - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 906 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 903 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. Phelix - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 797 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 942 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 924 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 1024 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 909 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 496 Views
Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM 818 Views
It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM 907 Views
Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM 922 Views
Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 522 Views
LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM 973 Views
Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM 867 Views
The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM 1027 Views
Beonin's Gateway darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:30:25 PM 893 Views
No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect! Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM 845 Views
Nope, Beonin shouldn't be that strong! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:48:30 PM 835 Views
This is true, however... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 958 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 1283 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 992 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 830 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 835 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 468 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 865 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 887 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 865 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 475 Views
No more than yours is! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 883 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 780 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 975 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 886 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM* Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM 455 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 895 Views
Goodness Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 898 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 837 Views
Since you love Wiki so much darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 838 Views
No you are not Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 896 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 956 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 978 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 861 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 881 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 920 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 878 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 855 Views
darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 1147 Views
The pathos of Darius Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 898 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) knightmarea7x - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 790 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 873 Views
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