a woman of lesser strength is as effective as a man with greater strength ... in effect Lanfear can accomplish anything Rand can, but she doesn't have his raw strength ... which is why I weighted the scale. Egwene cannot be both 50% of Lanfear and as strong as Amys and Melaine combined without making Amys and Melaine weaker than the evidence shows us.
By my scale Egwene is as effective as a man much stronger than her, but in raw strength she would be the equivalent of a man who was closer to a level 50. In terms of Raw strength across both sexes that puts her about half way up the Bell curve, which is significant for a woman, if not a man.
By my scale Egwene is as effective as a man much stronger than her, but in raw strength she would be the equivalent of a man who was closer to a level 50. In terms of Raw strength across both sexes that puts her about half way up the Bell curve, which is significant for a woman, if not a man.
You have come to the exact crossroads that you need to pass through in order to arrive at the correct solution. Namely that Amys and Melaine must be FAR lower down the scale than you have so far tried to place them.
Let's reduce this to Egwene and Lanfear for simpicity's sake. Egwene's effective strength is 80 out of 100, and Lanfear's is 100 out of 100. If you wish to multiply their strength by 4 (as per your unnecessarily compicated system) then Egwene goes up to 320, and Lanfear to 400. Either way, Egwene's EFFECTIVE strength is 80% as great as Lanfear's effective strength.
So, if you place Egwene this high, then how on earth can Lanfear still be as strong as Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelaine? Because Lanfear's EFFECTIVE strength must be equal to that of a top male Forsaken. And yet, in your model, she is outgunned by about 70% by a circle consisting of Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda.
Lanfear at 100 effective strength has no chance against Egwene's circle at 170-180 in strength.
The correct answer is to drop Egwene to 50, and Romanda, Lelaine and Moiraine to 30. Then it all makes perfect sense. And all the evidence in the books fits like a glove. As soon as you place Egwene higher than 50% of Lanfear's strength, the entire model starts coming apart.
Remember, Lanfear was the top level of the Bell Curve in the Age of Legends. And this Bell Curve had a higher average and therefore a higher upper limit than the modern one. In fact, based on the above, Egwene would be roughly as strong as the average woman in the Age of Legends. Meaning that she would be half as strong as Lanfear.
Channelers today are weaker than channelers in the Age of Legends. That is commonly stated. Furthermore, RJ says that while in the AoL 3% of the population could channel, today it is closer to 1%. The channeling pool has shrunk, and the average strength of channelers has decreased along with it.
So while Egwene is far above the average strength on the Third Age Bell Curve, the curve that applies to the Forsaken is a different one. It is in fact the one that represented the Age of Legends channeling population.
And on that curve, Egwene is only an average strength channeler (50% as strong as Lanfear) and Moiraine is about 30% as strong as Lanfear.
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
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Few glaring errors...
20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM
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Re: Few glaring errors...
21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM
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You don't get it, do you...
21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM
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Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
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What you are missing is that
21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM
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I'm not missing it at all..
21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
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Let's try matching that with the actual text
22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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Not correct...
22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
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Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence
22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM
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You're reading the evidence wrong.
22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM
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RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy
22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM
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I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH
20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM
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Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range...
20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM
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Corrections
21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM
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No...
21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM
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True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM*
21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM
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Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler
25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM
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yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers
21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM
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Perhaps...
21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM
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I've always hated bell curves
21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM
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The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average...
21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM
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and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve
22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM
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Why?
22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM
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Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the
22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM
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Always go back to the evidence...
22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM
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I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this
23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM
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I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments
24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM
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And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem
29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM
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I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
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Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
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Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM
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I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength
23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM
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How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM*
23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM
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Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent?
23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM
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It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough...
23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM
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Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too
23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM
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Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM*
23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
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LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing
23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM
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Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength...
23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM
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The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work
23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM
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No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect!
23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM
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This is true, however...
23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM
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Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
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Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation
23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM
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Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
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I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling
23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM
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Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM*
23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM
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Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then?
23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM
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And there you have it...Thank you.
23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM
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And linked with Romanda and Lelaine
23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM
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Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM*
23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM
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No more than yours is!
23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM*
26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM
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Goodness
31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM
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I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author
31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM
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No you are not
31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM
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Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this
26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM
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The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution
26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM
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And RJ knew his maths (and you don't)
31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM
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I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution
31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM
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