Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
You can disagree all you want, but until you can show a model that works with all of the quotes from RJ, the various quotes in the books, that works within a bell curve your "preposterous" proclamations are pretty much as ridiculous as you think my assertion that Egwene could be 80% the Strength of Lanfear.
Do you have a quote saying "Egwene is only 30% of Lanfear" ... didn't think so ...
As for what I have forgotten in Male v. Female strength ... go re-read my post! I state outright that a woman has less raw strength than a man at the same effective level. I also show you flat out that Moiraine and Romanda combined do not equal Rand, in fact they don't even equal Lanfear when linked as there is a penalty in raw strength when linked... it would take 3 women of Moiraine's level to approximate Rand's raw strength and even then it would be a close call ... this is supported by the text as 6 much less powerful sisters hold Rand with no problem ... in fact it's not until the active link is down to 3 AS that he can break the shield.
Show me where in the text that Lanfear is so much stronger than Semirhage... she is held by 3 AS who are MUCH weaker than Egwene, Romanda or Lelaine... Daigian is less than 1/3 of Romanda and the shield is still too much for Semirhage.
Lanfear is as effective as Rand, that does not make her as Strong as he is ... but it's clear you didn't read it so I'm not even going to bother with further responding to what you think I said.
Do you have a quote saying "Egwene is only 30% of Lanfear" ... didn't think so ...
As for what I have forgotten in Male v. Female strength ... go re-read my post! I state outright that a woman has less raw strength than a man at the same effective level. I also show you flat out that Moiraine and Romanda combined do not equal Rand, in fact they don't even equal Lanfear when linked as there is a penalty in raw strength when linked... it would take 3 women of Moiraine's level to approximate Rand's raw strength and even then it would be a close call ... this is supported by the text as 6 much less powerful sisters hold Rand with no problem ... in fact it's not until the active link is down to 3 AS that he can break the shield.
Show me where in the text that Lanfear is so much stronger than Semirhage... she is held by 3 AS who are MUCH weaker than Egwene, Romanda or Lelaine... Daigian is less than 1/3 of Romanda and the shield is still too much for Semirhage.
Lanfear is as effective as Rand, that does not make her as Strong as he is ... but it's clear you didn't read it so I'm not even going to bother with further responding to what you think I said.
You cannot say Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda need to match Rand's RAW strength to equal him, while Lanfear simply needs to meet his effective strength to equal him.
So you say Rand has a raw strength of 500.
Then you say Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda = 320+200+200 = 720. That's 50% stronger than Rand. Even if you take 10% off for the linking loss, they're still on about 650 vs. Rand's 500.
And then you still have to take into account the females dexterity advantage, which means that in terms of EFFECTIVE strength, Rand is only a 400 on your list. Therefore, you have Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine on 650, an Rand on 400. They would totally destroy Rand or any male channeler if that was the strength difference between them.
In fact, even if you just took Egwene plus Romanda, that would equal 320+200= 520. Take away the 10% linking loss and you're sitting on 470 EFFECTIVE strength. And due to the males dexterity disadvantage, it means that Rand's RAW 500 is actually equivalent to only 400 on the female scale. Meaning that Egwene pus Romanada on 470 are 20% stronger than Rand.
You are inconsistent in your application of the data, in order to MAKE your list fit the evidence.
How can you say Lanfear on 400 is comparable to Rand on 500 due to her dexterity advantage, but Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine need to be compared to Rand's RAW strength, with the female dexterity advantage suddenly ignored?
The bottomline is that if it takes Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelaine to match a male Forsaken, it should take Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelaine to match Lanfear as well.
And since Egwene plus Lelaine plus Romanda are around 700 in strength, together, they are vastly stronger than Lanfear who is on 400. This is not supported by the evidence in the books. In fact, it contradicts it.
Instead, you should put Egwene at around 50% of Lanfear's strength, and Romanda and Lelaine each at around 30% of Lanfear's strength. That would make everything fit perfectly, because then Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelain would - on the 100 point scale - equal 50+30+30 = 110, and after the linking loss they would be very close to Lanfear's strength.
On your strange 400 point scale, you then multiply the above by 4 to get to 440 vs Lanfear's 400, and after the linking loss you'd be at around 390 for Egwene's circle vs Lanfear's 400.
THAT fits the evidence. Not a scale where Egwene and Moiraine/Lelaine/Romanda are vastly exaggerated in strength as you are trying to claim.
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
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Few glaring errors...
20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM
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Re: Few glaring errors...
21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM
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You don't get it, do you...
21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM
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Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
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What you are missing is that
21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM
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I'm not missing it at all..
21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
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Let's try matching that with the actual text
22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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Not correct...
22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
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Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence
22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM
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You're reading the evidence wrong.
22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM
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RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy
22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM
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I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH
20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM
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Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range...
20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM
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Corrections
21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM
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No...
21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM
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True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM*
21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM
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Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler
25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM
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yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers
21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM
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Perhaps...
21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM
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I've always hated bell curves
21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM
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The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average...
21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM
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and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve
22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM
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Why?
22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM
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Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the
22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM
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Always go back to the evidence...
22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM
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I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this
23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM
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I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments
24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM
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And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem
29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM
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I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
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Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
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Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM
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I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength
23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM
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How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM*
23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM
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Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent?
23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM
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It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough...
23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM
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Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too
23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM
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Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM*
23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
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LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing
23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM
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Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength...
23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM
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The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work
23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM
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No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect!
23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM
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This is true, however...
23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM
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Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
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Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation
23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM
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Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
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I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling
23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM
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Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM*
23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM
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Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then?
23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM
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And there you have it...Thank you.
23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM
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And linked with Romanda and Lelaine
23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM
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Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM*
23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM
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No more than yours is!
23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM*
26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM
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Goodness
31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM
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I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author
31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM
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No you are not
31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM
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Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this
26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM
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The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution
26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM
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And RJ knew his maths (and you don't)
31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM
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I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution
31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM
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