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Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow Send a noteboard - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM

Seriously, a circle of thirteen would have a strength of 650 - do you really need to be six times stronger than someone to cut them off from the Source? We've seen already that high level channelers can shield one another, even at the same strength, so it makes no sense that this would require some insane boost.

So, all Aes Sedai are of strength fifty? Even if they are... why the hell not? These are women with lower dexterity than Rand trying to shield him. Their strengths are added up in the circle, the precision of the weave increases, but the dexterity of the weave is going to be the dexterity of the woman leading the circle.
Meaning that while she is of effective strength 50, the others only contribute 30, and some strength is again lost due to linking. Meaning its something like ((12*30)+50-10), 400. That you need to be four times stronger than a man to be able to shield him with absolute surety is not so unbelievable.
More importantly, who said a full thirteen is needed with sisters of strength 50?
As for Rand shielding Alanna and Verin, the answer is simple. Dexterity makes no difference when a man is shielding a woman. His weave uses both his dexterity and strength, but the woman's dexterity has absolutely no impact on her holding the power. She is, in effect, losing her dexterity advantage when being shielded. Thus, when Rand is shielding Alanna and Verin, their raw strengths of 30*2-10, ie. 50, is all he is fighting against with his effective strength of 100. He's twice as strong. What is tough to understand here?
Linking has a clear advantage in all aspects of the Power. The fact that it takes three or four of these women to link to Travel is the first blight on the theory that women cluster around 50 strength. The average woman is weak in the Power - only a fraction of Rand's strength. Rand himself can make six gateways of huge dimensions, and these women need a community to make one. There's nothing vague about it.

You assume again that Travelling is the same for men and women. On that flimsy basis, you're dismissing RJ's quotes and mathematical evidence?


In the Guide it says that the vast majority of channelers in the AOL were fairly weak. Those few channelers who had great strength were the ones who were famous for their One Power achievements.

Now, if the VAST MAJORITY of channelers are fairly weak, it means the vast majority falls below the median strength, and therefore the histogram is in fact a skewed curve (with the bulge lying below the middle point. There is no other way to interpret this.

Also, regarding strength: Egwene knows how powerful the Forsaken are. She has sensed Moghedien's strength, she has sensed Lanfear's strength in the battle of the wagons, she has sensed Nynaeve's strength and she has experienced Rand's strength - though at a time when he was still far below his maximum.

And when she judges how much it would take to match a male Forsaken, she says that she doubts that she and Lelaine and Romanda TOGETHER would be able to counter one of them.

Now, if we take your argument, then someone like Alanna would already be above 50 in strength, so Lelaine and Romanda - who are close to Moiriane in strength - would be significantly above 50 in strength. Probably around 55 each, at least. And Egwene is what 70 in strength? So add those three together, and you get say 55+55+70 = 180. How can it be doubtful that such a circle could match a man with a strength of 90-100?


This message last edited by Shannow on 18/12/2009 at 07:02:54 AM
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The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 03:32:03 PM 8259 Views
I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:27:53 PM 1596 Views
Re: I assume you're referring to EFFECTIVE strength here... Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:05:18 PM 1584 Views
Fair enough but the problem is... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:13:39 PM 1390 Views
There's one thing that does suggest Lanfear is very dextrous... fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 05:49:14 PM 1507 Views
Re: Fair enough but the problem is... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:08:27 PM 1076 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 04:52:56 PM 1484 Views
Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... Shannow - 17/12/2009 04:57:17 PM 1365 Views
Indeed, and not only that Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:10:46 PM 1070 Views
Re: Alivia's rings and chains angreal multiplies strength by 4 times or more... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:07:39 PM 1143 Views
Moiraine at 45 strength is way too high. She can't be that high. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:44:50 PM 751 Views
why? darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:57:37 PM 1191 Views
Re: why? Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:11:13 PM 1268 Views
I don't think there is one scale you can put both men and women on is the point darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:21:21 PM 1235 Views
and yet RJ does Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:27:39 PM 1143 Views
Re: and yet RJ does darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:49:20 PM 1023 Views
Re: and yet RJ does Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:20:16 AM 1112 Views
No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:08:04 PM 1228 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:53:24 AM 971 Views
Re: No more liberty than you are taking assuming only a woman like Graendal could do it! darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:12:47 PM 924 Views
Meh... Sidious - 19/12/2009 06:01:56 PM 931 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:43:58 PM 981 Views
Re: Meh... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 06:46:03 PM 1240 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha Sidious - 17/12/2009 05:07:28 PM 1191 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 06:24:12 PM 1098 Views
Let's work with your figures... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:45:46 PM 1036 Views
Re: Let's work with your figures... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:16:49 PM 1030 Views
You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 07:50:25 PM 710 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:59:13 PM 1130 Views
Still, it's created more questions than it has solved. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:13:26 PM 1160 Views
the obvious answer darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:06:33 PM 1021 Views
Re: You have a good point about Daigian and Semirhage. That may have been a BS mistake. Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:14:01 PM 1043 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Logain - 17/12/2009 08:17:10 PM 976 Views
Re: two women holding Nynaeve Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:19:34 PM 1156 Views
I personally think Nynaeve gained strength slower than most because of her block. Logain - 17/12/2009 08:30:44 PM 1231 Views
I think all the main characters were forced Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:38:41 PM 1137 Views
agreed! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:01:37 PM 1052 Views
but we know as late as WH that she has not reached her full potential darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:50:12 PM 1061 Views
What? Where? *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:22:36 AM 1119 Views
I'll have to dig up the quote, apologies but I'm at work and don't have the books darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 05:00:20 PM 1040 Views
Sorry, Path of Daggers not Winter's Heart darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 03:32:33 AM 1018 Views
Don't links amplify stength? BlackAdder - 17/12/2009 10:26:12 PM 955 Views
The opposite, actually. Phelix - 17/12/2009 10:36:51 PM 1060 Views
Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength Logain - 17/12/2009 07:46:55 PM 969 Views
Re: Gateway theory refutes this. The size of gateway is relevant to strength darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:55:38 PM 1157 Views
What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Logain - 17/12/2009 05:40:41 PM 1191 Views
It means even Moghedien is vastly stronger than the average modern Aes Sedai... Shannow - 17/12/2009 05:48:09 PM 1176 Views
Re: What do you think of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage in relation to Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:15:58 PM 1091 Views
Agreed! *NM* Logain - 17/12/2009 08:19:08 PM 631 Views
Re: The relative strength in the Power of Nynaeve vs Cadsuane vs Egwene/Elayne/Aviendha RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 06:47:23 PM 1166 Views
Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Shannow - 17/12/2009 06:53:18 PM 1117 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 07:26:55 PM 1344 Views
uhm.... yes she knows Oberonus - 17/12/2009 08:04:08 PM 1184 Views
Re: uhm.... yes she knows RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:24:17 PM 1068 Views
yup *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:49:51 PM 587 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 07:28:00 PM 1147 Views
Re: Except tthat Egwene herself says she has no chance against Moghedien... Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:23:01 PM 1335 Views
Ishamael told her that she would never be strong enough to face him darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 09:52:47 PM 1086 Views
And Ishamael was killed be a shepherd and Bel'al balefired by a "weak" Aes Sedai. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:33:41 PM 1025 Views
I hope that's not your standard for dueling Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:24:09 AM 1054 Views
what you expect a Channeler to announce themselves and darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:47:17 AM 1061 Views
How can we be certain Egwene was at full strength when she said that? Logain - 17/12/2009 07:58:39 PM 987 Views
agreed darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 08:00:40 PM 949 Views
Elayne says Egwene was at her full strength in TSR, and thus was stronger than she currently was. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 10:25:31 PM 928 Views
Elayne says Egwene was forced and was thus currently stronger darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:51:28 PM 971 Views
Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/12/2009 11:23:20 PM 1002 Views
Re: Definitely TSR, because I re-read that book constantly - will try to find the section! darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:25:31 PM 1002 Views
Didn't the glossary say that Cadsuane was not far behind Eg/El? *NM* Cannoli - 17/12/2009 08:05:32 PM 637 Views
I'll check *NM* Sidious - 17/12/2009 08:28:57 PM 606 Views
This thread has achieved absolutely nothing. When people don't accept quotes, what's the use... Shannow - 17/12/2009 10:22:45 PM 1114 Views
No people just interpret things differently darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 10:56:45 PM 921 Views
But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 17/12/2009 11:13:40 PM 864 Views
I think they are secretly just trying to make Lanfear appear that much stronger *NM* darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:17:38 PM 569 Views
You also forget something. Phelix - 17/12/2009 11:36:50 PM 953 Views
Re: You also forget something. darius_sedai - 17/12/2009 11:43:50 PM 976 Views
Re: You also forget something. Phelix - 18/12/2009 02:09:08 AM 1001 Views
That has nothing to do with what I said... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:21:06 AM 961 Views
Re: That has nothing to do with what I said... Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:28:53 PM 878 Views
Dude, prove it in a random sample, not in a skewed sample like "women who want to be Aes Sedai". fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 05:43:22 PM 922 Views
Show me a random sample in the series that we can use *NM* Sidious - 18/12/2009 06:45:08 PM 903 Views
I cannot. That's the point... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 08:33:38 PM 930 Views
Re: I cannot. That's the point... Sidious - 19/12/2009 11:58:39 AM 933 Views
Sorry, but no... fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:23:41 PM 972 Views
The One Power Bell Curve's average strength is not 50, it is more like 15... Shannow - 17/12/2009 11:41:48 PM 1454 Views
but you are the person quantifying the actual strength levels. darius_sedai - 18/12/2009 12:09:08 AM 937 Views
Yes, Sidious' scale is a relative scale not an absolute one *NM* BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:23:25 AM 842 Views
In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:37:47 AM 880 Views
Re: In a Bell curve, mean=median=mode. I suppose that is untrue now? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:47:52 AM 934 Views
What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:53:29 AM 898 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:16:53 AM 836 Views
Re: What do you mean, relative scale? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:40:33 AM 903 Views
OK, I have no interest in OP Strength, but you comments about statistics and bell curve got me BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 12:20:27 AM 969 Views
1 to 100 works perfectly well as a range... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 12:47:44 AM 905 Views
Here is an example with an absolute scale, converted to relative BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 01:03:38 AM 983 Views
The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:28:38 AM 1004 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 02:03:00 AM 1066 Views
Re: The Tower is not the whole range of channeler population! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 03:16:25 AM 1003 Views
You're right, and that proves my point - here are the calculations and the evidence... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:51:26 AM 981 Views
Dude, read up on some statistics, then we'll continue this debate... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:05:26 PM 908 Views
Explain one thing to me... Shannow - 18/12/2009 10:40:00 PM 925 Views
Who said she's stronger than two very strong AS? Silviana can shield her alone! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:01:01 PM 542 Views
Aviendha said so in FoH. It is a direct quote. Shannow - 18/12/2009 11:04:21 PM 883 Views
This is why I have a hard time with anyone using too many darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:22:40 AM 935 Views
Can you provide the quote? fionwe1987 - 19/12/2009 06:24:40 PM 844 Views
Well, I was curious so I went and found it darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 08:59:46 PM 1024 Views
which is also suspect darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:04:14 AM 946 Views
No it's not Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:04:21 PM 918 Views
we're in agreement darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:34 PM 868 Views
OK, the Tower AS don't fall into a bell-curve, then. BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 10:34:16 PM 948 Views
So, RJ made that statement for what reason? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 11:03:30 PM 916 Views
I don't think it's a lie BlackAdder - 18/12/2009 11:19:41 PM 969 Views
Agreed Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:14 PM 922 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:31:53 AM 903 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:42:33 AM 878 Views
Re: But you ignore RJ's own quotes... who're you to talk? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:04:39 PM 926 Views
Bell curves CANNOT be skewed! fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:06:15 PM 983 Views
I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 01:06:07 AM 974 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... Sidious - 18/12/2009 04:37:30 AM 950 Views
Re: I've discussed this before... fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 04:58:48 AM 928 Views
Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... Shannow - 18/12/2009 07:02:28 AM 961 Views
Why are you entertaining this? Sidious - 18/12/2009 01:19:25 PM 938 Views
The other poster showed no proof that RJ's math was wrong. Read what he said again! *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:09:49 PM 585 Views
Verin's circle matched Granedal dude. And average strength does not mean great strength. fionwe1987 - 18/12/2009 06:07:51 PM 951 Views
Re: Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda is weaker than one male Forsaken...according to Egwene herself... darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 12:46:18 AM 952 Views
I can't imagine it being about skill Sidious - 19/12/2009 12:06:42 PM 954 Views
of course it's about skill darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 05:22:45 PM 942 Views
Not it isn't! Sidious - 19/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 972 Views
If she was only thinking about strength why then didn't she have a plan to add Sheriam darius_sedai - 19/12/2009 07:09:08 PM 895 Views
I always thought that without her angreal... everynametaken - 18/12/2009 06:27:07 AM 1055 Views
Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha are equally matched. Heiko - 18/12/2009 07:47:03 AM 1176 Views
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