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Tulkas Was All Brute Force. The Name With No Man Send a noteboard - 09/12/2009 02:48:46 PM

And I find Erickson boring as well.

He is big on blood and battles, but his characters ring hollow.

Though I concede most of the characters in the Trilogy usually aren't easy for the average person to relate to themselves, in part, I think, because it is intended epically, which among other things means Tolkien wanted the line between good and evil to be sharp and clear (whereas Jordan wants just as badly to blur it in a very human way.) I still suggest, however, what I do to everyone who tells me they stopped reading the Trilogy at the Council of Elrond, or the Silmarillion at the Ainulindale: Keep going, it's worth it, and if the genealogies are confusing or boring the first time, skip 'em till later, because it took me three readings before they started to congeal anyway.

The Silmarillion's characters are even more epic and less familiar than the Trilogy's, like something out of the Elder Edda, but then, that's intentional, and we can appreciate an Arthur or Aeneas just as much without being reminded of anyone we've met. Within the Trilogy Hobbits are very purposefully our Everyman, subject to a lot more frailty, indecision, temptation, fear and prejudice as any human. With TWoT I'm helped because the ta'veren remind me a lot of me and two brothers I've known since our HS days (though Mat doesn't take half the crap I did from them, and Perrin and Rand don't fight like they did.

)

With Tolkien though it is largely about the story, hence he also referred to himself as a storyteller, and never mind that when we all read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in HS English the byline was "translated by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien."

Ulmo was always my favourite, the immensely powerful loner who didn't get along well with the others, yet whose awesome seas even Melkor himself feared. Manwe was always too perfect for my liking.

Aule was enjoyable to read about too, if only because he didn't follow the rules and went on to create his own race of dwarves.

But the powerful, mysterious Ulmo was the one I most enjoyed reading about. His fearsome appearance in the Waves to some of his subjects is something that sticks in my mind.

I would sit for hours and spin my own stories about how the various Valar had to make war on one another, and what the outcome would be. That was in my younger days, though.

I never could understand how the relatively low ranked Tulkas was able to defeat the most powerful of all the Valar, Melkor himself.

Anyway, comparing the power of the various Valar was something I got great satisfaction from. In a sense, I've transferred that fantasy to the Forsaken in Wot.

Not his fault Melkor decided to reduce it to that.

I much prefer the Silmarillion, and forever lament the fact we'll never have it in the depth we do the Trilogy. It was just too much story for one man to write in detail in a single lifetime. That said, the closest we'll ever get is History of Middle-Earth, and if you haven't read any of those, I strongly recommend them. Not all of them, understand, because virtually every scrap Tolkien ever wrote on Middle-Earth is in one volume or another, but The Book of Lost Tales I&II provide some nice narratives for the first two volumes (Volume II is especially nice, since it has the fullest narratives of Beren and Luthien, Turin Turambar and the Fall of Gondolin, plus an outline of Earendils voyage to Valinor at the end and a sketch of a Middle-Earth apocalypse prophecy.) The final volumes, which I'm sorry to say I've not yet read, have several stories found nowhere else with key insights into the why and wherefore of Middle-Earth cosmology. For example, "Morgoth's Ring" is an account of how Morgoth, in attempting to subdue Ea, passed a great deal of his essence into the earth much as Sauron did the Ring, with the result that he was proportionately diminished in personal strength, but gained some measure of influence over the earth and its inhabitants. In essence, it's Catholic Tolkien's explanation of original sin within the framework of Middle-Earth.

I think you're the first person I've ever encountered who enjoyed the Silm but not the Trilogy. It's always the other way around, or was. It's the better tale, IMHO, but all we have is Kay's ghostwritten synopsis of Tolkiens notes, painstakingly assembled into a single story by Christopher (and you get a sense in HoME of what a challenge he had, with multiple revisions of multiple stories covering decades of writing, often with no idea which one his father preferred (and that changed from time to time) or even which came first.) And HoME, where we learn that in the first draft of Beren and Luthien Beren was unwelcome in Thingol's court, not because he was mortal, but because of the Kinslaying and the fact the original Beren was a Noldo. Needless to say, I approve of the revision.

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The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See. The Name With No Man - 06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM 875 Views

So, What Are They? The Name With No Man - 06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM 611 Views

Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes. Tom - 06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM 539 Views

No, Indeed It Is Not. The Name With No Man - 06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM 431 Views

Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree. Tom - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM 452 Views

It may not provide intrinsic value to you. But for me, yes. redhand - 07/12/2009 06:06:40 AM 483 Views

Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.) The Name With No Man - 07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM 640 Views

Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan. Tom - 07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM 525 Views

Oh some book says it, so it must be true! fionwe1987 - 08/12/2009 05:57:14 AM 406 Views

I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper. The Name With No Man - 08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM 504 Views

I'm done with this thread. Tom - 08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM 431 Views

Goodbye then! *NM* fionwe1987 - 08/12/2009 06:45:25 PM 157 Views

Fair Enough. The Name With No Man - 08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM 785 Views

If it were just about Jordan I could ignore this last ridiculous comment. Tom - 09/12/2009 03:56:47 PM 511 Views

Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller... Shannow - 06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM 476 Views

It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim. The Name With No Man - 06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM 503 Views

Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion. Fanatic-Templar - 08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM 439 Views

Amen to that. Lord of the Rings rules! fionwe1987 - 08/12/2009 09:03:33 AM 399 Views

I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters Shannow - 09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM 399 Views

That Is a Great Shame. The Name With No Man - 09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM 393 Views

I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths... Shannow - 09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM 384 Views

Tulkas Was All Brute Force. The Name With No Man - 09/12/2009 02:48:46 PM 542 Views

That's.. too bad, I guess? Fanatic-Templar - 09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM 387 Views

Arya Stark, yes... Shannow - 10/12/2009 08:48:32 AM 397 Views

Re: Arya Stark, yes... Fanatic-Templar - 10/12/2009 04:56:07 PM 427 Views

Seems to me you've inverted it. Fanatic-Templar - 08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM 388 Views

One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.) The Name With No Man - 08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM 479 Views

I have no idea what you are trying to say, sorry. Fanatic-Templar - 08/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 403 Views

I'll Try to Rephrase Then (Including the Spoiler. ) The Name With No Man - 09/12/2009 12:49:55 PM 401 Views

I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM 429 Views

*Agrees 100%* Tom - 07/12/2009 06:04:31 PM 385 Views

I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. The Name With No Man - 08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM 370 Views

Re: I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 08/12/2009 07:26:30 PM 392 Views

True, and That Can Be Very Hard to Separate. The Name With No Man - 09/12/2009 01:14:57 PM 472 Views

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<quote id="59287">
<quote id="59273"><quote id="59265"><quote id="59253">And I find Erickson boring as well.

He is big on blood and battles, but his characters ring hollow.</quote>
Though I concede most of the characters in the Trilogy usually aren't easy for the average person to relate to themselves, in part, I think, because it is intended epically, which among other things means Tolkien wanted the line between good and evil to be sharp and clear (whereas Jordan wants just as badly to blur it in a very human way.) I still suggest, however, what I do to everyone who tells me they stopped reading the Trilogy at the Council of Elrond, or the Silmarillion at the Ainulindale: Keep going, it's worth it, and if the genealogies are confusing or boring the first time, skip 'em till later, because it took me three readings before they started to congeal anyway. :P The Silmarillion's characters are even more epic and less familiar than the Trilogy's, like something out of the Elder Edda, but then, that's intentional, and we can appreciate an Arthur or Aeneas just as much without being reminded of anyone we've met. Within the Trilogy Hobbits are very purposefully our Everyman, subject to a lot more frailty, indecision, temptation, fear and prejudice as any human. With TWoT I'm helped because the ta'veren remind me a lot of me and two brothers I've known since our HS days (though Mat doesn't take half the crap I did from them, and Perrin and Rand don't fight like they did. :P)

With Tolkien though it is largely about the story, hence he also referred to himself as a storyteller, and never mind that when we all read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in HS English the byline was "translated by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien." ;)</quote>

Ulmo was always my favourite, the immensely powerful loner who didn't get along well with the others, yet whose awesome seas even Melkor himself feared. Manwe was always too perfect for my liking.

Aule was enjoyable to read about too, if only because he didn't follow the rules and went on to create his own race of dwarves.

But the powerful, mysterious Ulmo was the one I most enjoyed reading about. His fearsome appearance in the Waves to some of his subjects is something that sticks in my mind.

I would sit for hours and spin my own stories about how the various Valar had to make war on one another, and what the outcome would be. That was in my younger days, though.

I never could understand how the relatively low ranked Tulkas was able to defeat the most powerful of all the Valar, Melkor himself.

Anyway, comparing the power of the various Valar was something I got great satisfaction from. In a sense, I've transferred that fantasy to the Forsaken in Wot. </quote>
Not his fault Melkor decided to reduce it to that. ;)

I think you're the first person I've ever encountered who enjoyed the Silm but not the Trilogy. It's always the other way around, or was. It's the better tale, IMHO, but all we have is Kay's ghostwritten synopsis of Tolkiens notes, painstakingly assembled into a single story by Christopher (and you get a sense in HoME of what a challenge he had, with multiple revisions of multiple stories covering decades of writing, often with no idea which one his father preferred (and that changed from time to time) or even which came first.) And HoME, where we learn that in the first draft of Beren and Luthien Beren was unwelcome in Thingol's court, not because he was mortal, but because of the Kinslaying and the fact the original Beren was a Noldo. Needless to say, I approve of the revision. :P
</quote>

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