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Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM
And that really captures my preferences in a nutshell.

I don't read literature. I read a good story. And I want to experience great characters.

In other words, I want to read something that's a visceral experience, rather than an intellectual one.


Same here. But I get a more emotional experience from reading the Lord of the Rings than anything ever written by George Martin. Merry and Pippin and their conversation with the people arriving at Isengard in Flotsam and Jetsam make me feel contented happiness - something I have never seen another pull off. Smiling as though I were joking along with friends.

I feel the despair when traversing the Black Land, and I feel the terror of the Nazgûl ever at the Hobbits' tail, I feel the triumph on the Field of Cormallen and Pippin's outrage at the brigands' disrespect for Frodo back in the Shire.

Yet these are certainly not characters I can identify with - they're all far greater than life, even the Hobbits, while not possessing any exceptional strength or power or what not, are inhumanly good-natured and innocent, pure even. Intrinsically heroic and noble, as you put it below.

I contrast this with the sanitized, "goody two shoes", intrinsically heroic and noble characters in the Wheel of Time. People like the heroic Egwene, honourable Perrin and self sacrificing Rand.

In tGS I got the first ever hint about Rand saying that he actually wants to live despite the prophecies of his death. Up to now, he has so fatalistically accepted his fate, and his duty which is heavier than a mountain that it becomes unbelievable.

My biggest gripe is that every good character in the Wheel of Time lives for goals greater than themselves. They deny their own needs and desires almost without fail.


In Stephen Erikson's Deadhouse Gates, you feel for Coltaine because of just that. By any accounts, bearing the weight of the Chain of Dogs is an inhuman feat, but that doesn't make the experience less visceral, it makes it much more so.

Arya also got humiliated in such a fashion by a character, but she ended up sticking him with the pointy end. And THAT brought me more satisfaction than when Rob Stark won the battle of the Whispering Woods.

In a nutshell what I'm saying is that by denying the characters these experiences, Robert Jordan is denying me as the reader those experiences as well. And that's why I identify with the bad guys almost to a greater extent than with the protagonists. Because they don't deny themselves, and by extension me as the reader when I am in their shoes.


I'd probably be deeply satisfied to see Mallick Rel's throat slit, but revenge is such an unsatisfying emotion. It's just a brief moment, and afterward you feel hollow because it's essentially a resolution. It simply can't compare to something like the Field of Cormallen.

Inhuman characters allow you to feel inhuman emotions through them, if they are well written. And given that I can actually feel human emotions, I don't really need to read a book to experience them.

Also, I loathe Arya, skip her chapters on rereads and view her storyline from her escape from King's Landing to her departure from Westeros the same way many people here view Perrin's storyline while Faile was abducted.
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The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See. - 06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM 941 Views
So, What Are They? - 06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM 699 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes. - 06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM 615 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not. - 06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM 523 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree. - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM 515 Views
It may not provide intrinsic value to you. But for me, yes. - 07/12/2009 06:06:40 AM 544 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.) - 07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM 750 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan. - 07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM 598 Views
Oh some book says it, so it must be true! - 08/12/2009 05:57:14 AM 473 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper. - 08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM 588 Views
I'm done with this thread. - 08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM 502 Views
Goodbye then! *NM* - 08/12/2009 06:45:25 PM 183 Views
Fair Enough. - 08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM 852 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller... - 06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM 545 Views
It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim. - 06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM 539 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion. - 08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM 500 Views
Amen to that. Lord of the Rings rules! - 08/12/2009 09:03:33 AM 432 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters - 09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM 464 Views
That Is a Great Shame. - 09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM 460 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths... - 09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM 447 Views
Tulkas Was All Brute Force. - 09/12/2009 02:48:46 PM 614 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess? - 09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM 446 Views
Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 08:48:32 AM 458 Views
Re: Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 04:56:07 PM 488 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it. - 08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM 450 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.) - 08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM 551 Views
I have no idea what you are trying to say, sorry. - 08/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 464 Views
I'll Try to Rephrase Then (Including the Spoiler. ) - 09/12/2009 12:49:55 PM 475 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials. - 07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM 499 Views
*Agrees 100%* - 07/12/2009 06:04:31 PM 451 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM 447 Views
Re: I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 07:26:30 PM 464 Views
True, and That Can Be Very Hard to Separate. - 09/12/2009 01:14:57 PM 540 Views

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