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Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree. Tom Send a noteboard - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM
It's a fun story. A diversion. It has no intrinsic worth other than its entertainment value. Look hard enough and you can find messages in Home Improvement or Barney the Dinosaur.

In response to some of your points:

1. Jordan's world is not Manichaean. This word is misused as an adjective liberally when speaking of the Wheel of Time, and Manichaeism is misconstrued on a regular basis. Manichaeism did NOT envision a world perfectly balanced between two forces, where either could win. It simply recognised two independent sources of power, one good and one evil. The good power in Manichaeism, however, was more powerful and destined to win. Read, if you have questions, works such as the Kephalaia of the Teacher, which was reprinted by Brill
Academic Publishing recently (and which I own).

2. Jordan's world is not Zoroastrian. Zoroastrianism is another religion that is misconstrued and poorly understood by many. While Jordan's world is closer in cosmology to Zoroastrianism than to Manichaeism, certainly, the central elements of Zoroastrianism are missing - fire and water, and particularly the fire temple. The obsession with lies as the foundation of evil is lacking, as are other vital elements of the religion. Just having two forces, one good and one evil, doesn't make a world either Manichaean or Zoroastrian.

3. Ba'alzemon is a corruption of Ba'al Zephon, Ba'al of Mount Zaphon or the Northern Mountain, a mountain prominent in the Lebanon. Lilitu is NOT a Hebrew word. It is an Akkadian loan-word from Sumerian, where lil means "wind". It is related to the divine names Enlil (Lord of the Wind) and his consort Ninlil (Lady of the Wind). In Hebrew this word is rendered lilit. The name has no etymological connection to the night, and no connection whatsoever to Lanfear.

4. Ba'al is only mentioned in the Pentateuch once, in Numbers, where the children of Israel worship the abomination of Ba'al Peor, which is not explained properly but which is a cult of the dead.

5. Lilith has no connection whatsoever with Ishtar. They co-existed in the same pantheon and had nothing in common with each other. Let me repeat: They. Had. NOTHING. In. Common.

6. Metempsychosis does not equate with Gnosticism. Many religions ascribe to it in principle. In fact, metempsychosis is more common than the "one life then final judgment" scheme in terms of number of religions.

7. According to wikipedia, Robert Jordan compared his work to War and Peace in "Interview with Robert Jordan - SFX Magazine #16, September 1996". Yes, it's hubris.

8. Agape is properly a selfless, divine sort of love, and if you're talking about THAT in Wheel of Time you've just elevated it far beyond anything even it claims to. I don't see any compelling description of love of any sort in the series. It's just...vapid.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See. - 06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM 876 Views
So, What Are They? - 06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM 612 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes. - 06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM 539 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not. - 06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM 433 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree. - 07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM 453 Views
It may not provide intrinsic value to you. But for me, yes. - 07/12/2009 06:06:40 AM 483 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.) - 07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM 641 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan. - 07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM 526 Views
Oh some book says it, so it must be true! - 08/12/2009 05:57:14 AM 406 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper. - 08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM 505 Views
I'm done with this thread. - 08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM 432 Views
Goodbye then! *NM* - 08/12/2009 06:45:25 PM 157 Views
Fair Enough. - 08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM 786 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller... - 06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM 476 Views
It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim. - 06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM 506 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion. - 08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM 439 Views
Amen to that. Lord of the Rings rules! - 08/12/2009 09:03:33 AM 399 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters - 09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM 399 Views
That Is a Great Shame. - 09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM 395 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths... - 09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM 385 Views
Tulkas Was All Brute Force. - 09/12/2009 02:48:46 PM 544 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess? - 09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM 387 Views
Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 08:48:32 AM 398 Views
Re: Arya Stark, yes... - 10/12/2009 04:56:07 PM 427 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it. - 08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM 389 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.) - 08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM 482 Views
I have no idea what you are trying to say, sorry. - 08/12/2009 08:12:35 PM 403 Views
I'll Try to Rephrase Then (Including the Spoiler. ) - 09/12/2009 12:49:55 PM 403 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials. - 07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM 430 Views
*Agrees 100%* - 07/12/2009 06:04:31 PM 386 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM 372 Views
Re: I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes. - 08/12/2009 07:26:30 PM 393 Views
True, and That Can Be Very Hard to Separate. - 09/12/2009 01:14:57 PM 474 Views

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