It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim.
The Name With No Man Send a noteboard - 06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM
Tolkien said the same, after all. And there's nothing wrong with a good story well told. I just want more. Soaps have been evoking visceral reactions for decades, but they don't do much more so I don't waste my time with them. Not when I can have my cake and eat it, too.
I do not want to debate the merits of ASoIaF vs. TWoT, because let me assure you my distaste for the former is far in excess of yours for the latter. After all, you clearly still read TWoT, but I gave up on ASoIaF after the first book. After the first half, actually, but I'd already paid for it and said I'd read it, so I finished it. I find few if any of the characters credible because it seems like the ones who aren't evil to the core are dumb as posts. The only one I really liked was Ned, true to his honor at any cost (so unlike the characters in TWoT, I know) right up until his one inexplicable break with honor killed him and destroyed his family. I might have accepted that if it weren't so painfully obvious what Cersei would do to him once he gave up the only leverage he had over the situation. He actually expected a creature like that to keep her word when she had no incentive to do so and every reason not to do so, and I thought he was smarter than that if not better. But... well, TVoLT has said he hopes to see some chance of victory for the Shadow in TWoT, an example of "evil always wins because good is stupid" and my suggestion would be to look at the other series for plenty of examples.
I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, because I didn't mean it to be, it's just the way I feel. It's ironic to me you find TWoT characters so implausibly idealistic because implausible characters is what drove me from ASoIaF. Despite their failings, which are many, characters in TWoT usually resist temptation because they know submission jeopardizes all the things really important to them. Even Perrin wouldn't make the mistake Ned did (probably, he's gotten to be an awful yutz over Faile) not because he's so much more noble, but because he'd have recognized sacrificing his principles wouldn't save Faile, and would lose her in addition to everything else. That's the key, you see: Characters in TWoT, the ones who don't destroy themselves, act as they do not because they're so idealistic, but because when morality fails enlightened self interest is there to backstop it.
But, no, this thread is not intended as a defense of TWoT in the abstract or to compare it favorably to other works. It's specifically directed at the notion the visceral level of a good yarn is all that TWoT is, which I strongly dispute.
I do not want to debate the merits of ASoIaF vs. TWoT, because let me assure you my distaste for the former is far in excess of yours for the latter. After all, you clearly still read TWoT, but I gave up on ASoIaF after the first book. After the first half, actually, but I'd already paid for it and said I'd read it, so I finished it. I find few if any of the characters credible because it seems like the ones who aren't evil to the core are dumb as posts. The only one I really liked was Ned, true to his honor at any cost (so unlike the characters in TWoT, I know) right up until his one inexplicable break with honor killed him and destroyed his family. I might have accepted that if it weren't so painfully obvious what Cersei would do to him once he gave up the only leverage he had over the situation. He actually expected a creature like that to keep her word when she had no incentive to do so and every reason not to do so, and I thought he was smarter than that if not better. But... well, TVoLT has said he hopes to see some chance of victory for the Shadow in TWoT, an example of "evil always wins because good is stupid" and my suggestion would be to look at the other series for plenty of examples.
I'm sorry if that sounded harsh, because I didn't mean it to be, it's just the way I feel. It's ironic to me you find TWoT characters so implausibly idealistic because implausible characters is what drove me from ASoIaF. Despite their failings, which are many, characters in TWoT usually resist temptation because they know submission jeopardizes all the things really important to them. Even Perrin wouldn't make the mistake Ned did (probably, he's gotten to be an awful yutz over Faile) not because he's so much more noble, but because he'd have recognized sacrificing his principles wouldn't save Faile, and would lose her in addition to everything else. That's the key, you see: Characters in TWoT, the ones who don't destroy themselves, act as they do not because they're so idealistic, but because when morality fails enlightened self interest is there to backstop it.
But, no, this thread is not intended as a defense of TWoT in the abstract or to compare it favorably to other works. It's specifically directed at the notion the visceral level of a good yarn is all that TWoT is, which I strongly dispute.
The Wheel of Time's Great Themes, Edited to Include Those I See.
06/12/2009 05:58:08 AM
- 875 Views
So, What Are They?
06/12/2009 09:36:56 AM
- 611 Views
Putting names into a blender isn't the same as weaving together great themes.
06/12/2009 03:17:05 PM
- 539 Views
No, Indeed It Is Not.
06/12/2009 04:37:23 PM
- 431 Views
Oh my God...trying to use agape in context of this series is overkill to the nth degree.
07/12/2009 04:12:56 AM
- 452 Views
Jordan May Not Always Execute It Well, But I Believe It's There (Now We Face Details in TGS.)
07/12/2009 04:28:05 PM
- 640 Views
Read what Larry's Short History of Fantasy says about Jordan.
07/12/2009 05:56:03 PM
- 525 Views
I Have to Agree With Fionwe's View the Characters Are Deeper.
08/12/2009 04:19:07 PM
- 504 Views
I'm done with this thread.
08/12/2009 06:21:41 PM
- 431 Views
Fair Enough.
08/12/2009 07:02:04 PM
- 785 Views
If it were just about Jordan I could ignore this last ridiculous comment.
09/12/2009 03:56:47 PM
- 511 Views
Louis La'mour said about himself he wasn't an author so much as a storyteller...
06/12/2009 03:41:09 PM
- 476 Views
It's a Popular, If Perhaps Suspicious, Claim.
06/12/2009 04:55:25 PM
- 504 Views
Ha. Funny, I feel the same way, and come to the opposite conclusion.
08/12/2009 08:42:41 AM
- 439 Views
I've never been able to finish the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. Too boring, with fairy tale characters
09/12/2009 12:28:26 PM
- 399 Views
That Is a Great Shame.
09/12/2009 01:27:44 PM
- 393 Views
I enjoyed the Silmarrilion though...the part about the Valar and their comparative strengths...
09/12/2009 01:39:47 PM
- 384 Views
That's.. too bad, I guess?
09/12/2009 08:40:49 PM
- 387 Views
Seems to me you've inverted it.
08/12/2009 08:48:07 AM
- 388 Views
One Way or the Other Their WoT Origin Must Be the Stories We Know (Slight Spoiler Alert.)
08/12/2009 03:18:30 PM
- 479 Views
I don't really see any "great" themes per se, just an enjoyable story, like the pulp serials.
07/12/2009 03:32:43 PM
- 429 Views
I Think He Set Out to Write Epic Fantasy, Yes.
08/12/2009 04:25:36 PM
- 370 Views