YaLUGM! (You are Laboring Under a Grave Misconception!)
guttering flame Send a noteboard - 23/11/2009 07:10:10 AM
Let me venture a guess that you dislike my post because you think I adore Egwene and think she's better than Rand. You couldn't be more wrong. I regularly applaud your flaming posts against her even though they are way over the top and rival WoT itself in length. And while we're at it I don't like David's character in the Bible that much either.
So in reverse order:
When I wrote this post I had promised myself I'd wait for the paperback to come out and not by a big bulky hardback (which wasn't in the stores near me anyway). It looked like a year of waiting. But after a while I gave in and got the audiobook version which wasn't as bad as I feared.
I was thinking about you in fact
And David was a sellsword in the pay of the Philistines.
Well, Saul was the first choice in the story and while David was given blessing by the religious figures he rose more gradually and by himself. And David is presented as selfish in many ways as well. More than Saul. You say she is nothing special but the story has been beating us with a bludgeon about Egwene's greatness in all things. Now that the tower conflict is finally over we can say that this war was not fought by force of arms but by psychological means, backroom shady deals and most of all posturing (as is fitting for AS)
He's their first 'king', their caracaran which only applies for Saul.
The parallels between the finn prophecy and Saul's prophecy is striking. And Jesus didn't let his children die.
Saul still had his supporters almost to his death (until the lost the final battle). His popularity declined though and the religious establishment shunned him. Similarly Rand's followers have some doubts about Rand and conspire behind his back and the religious leadership in the Westlands (the white tower) wants to control him and either put him in a box or let him know their anger. As for building power base he has tried to be a sort of uber-leader for the Westlands who has the final say about what goes on (how to treat the peasants, who gets food and who delivers and how their armies are deployed.
The Westlands don't have exact parallels to the religious infrastructure that existed in our world. The closest thing to it in them are the Aes Sedai and the Whitecloaks.
The people Do want a dragon. Every time a false dragon proclaim himself he gets many followers, and at the beginning of that book there were many such. Moiraine talks about the need for one by the pattern (which is comprised of these people). People feel they are in decline as we hear in tGH and want someone to change all that and finally give them hope against their pernicious enemy.
Putting Rand in the role of Samuel doesn't really fit. He is not guiding them spiritually that much. He is more concerned with plotting methods to defeat their enemies. And the tale doesn't in the end cautions against choosing a king because after Saul's defeat the time of Judges doesn't return. The kings continue to rule from that day on. The story says it would have been better if they trusted in God to help them out instead of a king but since that is beyond them (just as it is beyond the people of WoT to defeat the DO through sheer goodness of heart without the help of the Dragon) they are given kings instead.
Which has NOTHING to do with Rand! When has he EVERY pursued personal glory, aside from doing what is necessary to whip a recalcitrant humanity into shape for the Last Battle? Not to mention, Moiraine is hardly the voice of right. She was more like Delilah, trying to emasculate and entrap Samson for his enemies, the White Tower. Right up until she found out a rival had taken control of the Tower, she was serving the Tower in her efforts. She wanted the Tower to be in control of him, she opposed things that were clearly in his best interests, because they would reflect badly on the Tower or else curtail the Tower's influence on him. Moiraine was no Prophet or Judge, she only did what she had to do to keep her influence with him. She never submitted to him out of respect for his authority or mission, but because he had outgrown any need for her and would not have her on any other terms. Granted she WANTED to be like Sammael, and annoint him, so all could know whence his authority came (from her and the power she represented), but events thwarted her schemes.
Well personal glory might have been the wrong descriptive. His sins according to the story are not obeying God's orders which are the orders Samuel gives him and thinking more of the good of the kingdom. His other big problem is his jelousy of David that looks like he is trying to usurp his place.
I wouldn't go so far as Delilah-ing Moiraine. She wasn't trying to seduce him and cause him and everything he believed in defeat. She honestly believed that she and Siuan could guide him and help him achieve his goal/destiny. And while Samuel speaks the words of God, they did at times seem contradictory to the interests of the people of Israel and its king.
The reason Moiraine is cast in the role of Samuel in my theory is because she is guided throught most of her life by the prophecies she tries to fulfill even if they weren't her own.
So in reverse order:
Edit to add: I haven't yet read tGS so please warn of spoilers if you mention them or avoid them altogether if you can.
Why do you make predictions when you are so short of information? This post could not have waited a day for you to check actual available material?When I wrote this post I had promised myself I'd wait for the paperback to come out and not by a big bulky hardback (which wasn't in the stores near me anyway). It looked like a year of waiting. But after a while I gave in and got the audiobook version which wasn't as bad as I feared.
Egwene affiliates herself with the Green Ajah, the Battle ajah.
While Rand deteriotes Egwene rises, and as some predict, is destined to replace Rand as the true hero of the tale.
No one, not even blind devotees predict this or reasonably expect it!I was thinking about you in fact
Unlike Saul who was given his kingship, David gradually builds his power. First by being recognized by Samuel as the future king (Moiraine taking of Egwene as her apprentice), then residing in Saul's court and gaining strength and popularity there (as Egwene follows Rand on his journeys to the Eye, Falme, Tear, the Waste and Cairihien) and then striking out on his own building an army and winning victories on the field at times even with Saul's enemies (As Egwene does since she left Rand and became Amyrlin of the rebel Aes Sedai.)
And which of Rand's enemies has she opposed? She makes a coalition of his divided enemies, sympathizes entirely with them, and plans to aggrandize them and punish him for their benefit! And David was a sellsword in the pay of the Philistines.
And who is David in the story. I think the answer is obvious. After growing distant from Rand Al'Thor the Aes Sedai embrace Egwene as their leader. Egwene who began from moderate beginnings (like David) is multi-talented and succeeds in whatever she does. She does not play music but we see her talent in making new complex weaves from scratch. And like David she display tactical genius in her war against the tower using travelling to make a surprise entrance to the Tower environs and Cuendillar conversion techniques to cut Tar Valon from supplies. Not to mention her secret war to grasp the actual power of the Amyrlin Seat from the Aes Sedai leaders.
Except for the fact that she is NOT supernaturally distinguished or annointed or otherwise chosen. HER quest has been ENTIRELY about personal power, which is an undeniable FACT, not a question of opinion. We may differ on her reasons for seeking that power and the worthiness of those reasons, but she is seeking personal power, end of story. She gives little or no thought or attention to the bigger picture or the fight against evil, and her tactical accumen is more akin to that of a general who learns to kiss ass after having been taken prisoner for her own blunders. Militarily, she has been nothing short of inept, using only common sense for her best moves, and frittering away numerous advantages. Well, Saul was the first choice in the story and while David was given blessing by the religious figures he rose more gradually and by himself. And David is presented as selfish in many ways as well. More than Saul. You say she is nothing special but the story has been beating us with a bludgeon about Egwene's greatness in all things. Now that the tower conflict is finally over we can say that this war was not fought by force of arms but by psychological means, backroom shady deals and most of all posturing (as is fitting for AS)
Also like Saul, Rand is exceptionally tall
And he's from a race that is divided into 12 sub-groups which made a long exodus and spent a lot of time in the desert being punished for their sins! Oh, wait. That's just about EVERYONE in the Bible after the Pentateuch. He's their first 'king', their caracaran which only applies for Saul.
He receives a personal prophecy from shady sources that he must die in the Final Battle just as Saul did and just like Saul did he still intends to go there. In his previous life he has committed suicide after he caused the death of his children (Just as Saul did after knowingly leading his sons to their deaths)
Yeah, because THAT fits Rand better than Jesus going willingly to His Passion and Death. The parallels between the finn prophecy and Saul's prophecy is striking. And Jesus didn't let his children die.
Like Saul, after initial successes Rand rebels against Moiraine and other Aes Sedai who try to control him and sets out on his own path. After initial successes against the Shadow and Seanchan he concentrates more and more on building his own power base and gradually losses the allegiance of his supporters.
Yeah, why don't you name one of those people whose allegiance he lost? (At least anyone of significance) Even those who rebelled against him now serve and follow him! And how is he building his power base? At every turn he is trying to turn authority over to others! He is always looking for new rulers to place over lands rather than take them himself, and he shys away from getting tied down with rulership details, keeping his eyes on the big picture. Saul still had his supporters almost to his death (until the lost the final battle). His popularity declined though and the religious establishment shunned him. Similarly Rand's followers have some doubts about Rand and conspire behind his back and the religious leadership in the Westlands (the white tower) wants to control him and either put him in a box or let him know their anger. As for building power base he has tried to be a sort of uber-leader for the Westlands who has the final say about what goes on (how to treat the peasants, who gets food and who delivers and how their armies are deployed.
Moiraine is a parallel to Samuel also in her affiliation to the White Tower. The Aes Sedai are the closest thing in this story to the Prophets and religious leaders of the Bible. They wield the power of the Creator, the One Power, some give prophecies and are "The servants of All" and not kings.
They are the scribes and Pharisees who have fallen far and fail to recognize the true leader when he comes, who plot and scheme against him. It is also worth noting that like many pre-Christian Biblical figures (Samson, Samuel, Issac, John the Baptist), his parents were believed to be unable to have children.
The Westlands don't have exact parallels to the religious infrastructure that existed in our world. The closest thing to it in them are the Aes Sedai and the Whitecloaks.
Like Saul, Rand too begins as a herder. He is met by Moiraine who takes him from his home and crowns him as the Dragon, the leader of humanity in this time of need. she herself is propelled in this by the prophecies of her people. We see in the tales of the False Dragons and their followers that there is a censured demand for a Dragon to lead them among the people of the Westlands, just as in the story of Saul.
Nobody wanted the Dragon, nobody demanded it. That whole story of Saul is a cautionary tale showing that the Israelites got what they asked for, and were wrong in their pride to so demand it. Rand is more like a prophet of judge who is sent to protect and guide the people and set them straight, but they keep on refusing to listen. Moiraine MIGHT be the Eli to Rand's Samuel.The people Do want a dragon. Every time a false dragon proclaim himself he gets many followers, and at the beginning of that book there were many such. Moiraine talks about the need for one by the pattern (which is comprised of these people). People feel they are in decline as we hear in tGH and want someone to change all that and finally give them hope against their pernicious enemy.
Putting Rand in the role of Samuel doesn't really fit. He is not guiding them spiritually that much. He is more concerned with plotting methods to defeat their enemies. And the tale doesn't in the end cautions against choosing a king because after Saul's defeat the time of Judges doesn't return. The kings continue to rule from that day on. The story says it would have been better if they trusted in God to help them out instead of a king but since that is beyond them (just as it is beyond the people of WoT to defeat the DO through sheer goodness of heart without the help of the Dragon) they are given kings instead.
Many compared him to Jesus but as the series progresses we see more and more of the flaws that grow in Rand's character that disavow this notion and of course we have his actions in his previous life when he murdered his family in a fit of madness.
Saul on the other hand fits like a glove.
So lets review the life of Saul:
We meet him searching for lost donkeys, classic job of a herder. There he meet the prophet Samuel who anoints him to become king after the people have demanded from him to give them a king in their times of trouble. He becomes a king and succeeds in repelling the enemies of the Land. But, as time goes by he grows distant from Samuel and his teaching.
Most noticeably when ordered to annihilate the Pkies utterly he doesn't kill their livestock and spares their king. In general he is accused of pursuing personal glory too much despite his many good qualities.
Which has NOTHING to do with Rand! When has he EVERY pursued personal glory, aside from doing what is necessary to whip a recalcitrant humanity into shape for the Last Battle? Not to mention, Moiraine is hardly the voice of right. She was more like Delilah, trying to emasculate and entrap Samson for his enemies, the White Tower. Right up until she found out a rival had taken control of the Tower, she was serving the Tower in her efforts. She wanted the Tower to be in control of him, she opposed things that were clearly in his best interests, because they would reflect badly on the Tower or else curtail the Tower's influence on him. Moiraine was no Prophet or Judge, she only did what she had to do to keep her influence with him. She never submitted to him out of respect for his authority or mission, but because he had outgrown any need for her and would not have her on any other terms. Granted she WANTED to be like Sammael, and annoint him, so all could know whence his authority came (from her and the power she represented), but events thwarted her schemes.
Well personal glory might have been the wrong descriptive. His sins according to the story are not obeying God's orders which are the orders Samuel gives him and thinking more of the good of the kingdom. His other big problem is his jelousy of David that looks like he is trying to usurp his place.
I wouldn't go so far as Delilah-ing Moiraine. She wasn't trying to seduce him and cause him and everything he believed in defeat. She honestly believed that she and Siuan could guide him and help him achieve his goal/destiny. And while Samuel speaks the words of God, they did at times seem contradictory to the interests of the people of Israel and its king.
The reason Moiraine is cast in the role of Samuel in my theory is because she is guided throught most of her life by the prophecies she tries to fulfill even if they weren't her own.
The Biblical parallels: Saul and David
- 06/11/2009 02:43:41 PM
1403 Views
Interesting.
- 06/11/2009 03:28:04 PM
660 Views
Note:
- 06/11/2009 07:58:31 PM
619 Views
Your'e incorrect in terms of chronology.
- 06/11/2009 08:19:46 PM
2799 Views
Was there enough order left for this?
- 06/11/2009 09:03:39 PM
628 Views
It's in the BWB and The Strike of Shayol Ghul.
- 06/11/2009 09:29:27 PM
918 Views
If so, then Moiraine will come back from the "dead" and tell him he's gonna lose, too.
- 06/11/2009 03:35:16 PM
726 Views
*NM*
ROFLMAO
- 07/11/2009 12:28:24 AM
864 Views
YaLUGM! (You are Laboring Under a Grave Misconception!)
- 23/11/2009 07:10:10 AM
669 Views