Wheel of Time Messageboard: Probably not in this case by Sidious

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Probably not in this case Sidious Send a noteboard - 21/11/2009 11:34:25 PM

I admit freely that Graendal could be as low as Mesaana, or indeed as high as you place her. But my point is, we have no evidence whatsoever to decide that.

You base a large part of your argument on Graendal's statement that women stronger than her were very rare. Are we to take it then that Graendal was the ONLY member of the Forsaken who did not overrate her own abilities?

Because based on the examples of the Forsaken self assessments so far, Graendal's very rare statement probably means she only bumped into 1 or 2 people EVERY DAY who exceeded her in strength.

I said that tongue in cheek, but the truth is, if Graendal's own opinion of her supposed strength is what you base your assessment on, then it certainly leaves a lot of room for questioning.

And besides, other than Moghedien, ALL of the Forsaken were of rare strength. So Graendal's quote tells us nothing really about where she lies compared to the other female Forsaken.

What I'm therefore pointing out is that your list, while it could certainly be true, is based on a heck of a lot of conjecture at this point in time.

It's a quote you've been happy to use for years before this, and now suddenly it's unsuitable to you because it contests your theory in some way.

In fact, Graendal isn't hyperinflating anything - the quote originates from her own admission that Cyndane is stronger than her in the Power. If anything, this is a rare quote from a Forsaken conceding that another channeler has an advantage over them.

She said finding a woman of greater strength was exceedingly rare, even in her own age. She's not saying she could defeat Cyndane, or that she is more skilled. It's a tangeable and measurable aspect of the One Power, which we all know.

Of course, what the statement means to you is your decision. To me, when Graendal says that a woman of greater strength is 'exceedingly rare indeed', it indicates that only Lanfear held such a place above her, and that her strength is one of her assets among the women. Still, if you want to believe that Semirhage, Mesaana and Lanfear are these exceedingly rare women, then by all means, indulge yourself.

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Female Forsaken strength : a new post Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:12:35 PM 1721 Views

Except... Etzel - 19/11/2009 04:26:32 PM 754 Views

There's no evidence for that Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:31:17 PM 707 Views

I agree with Sidious - we have no evidence at this time, so she should remain off the list kcf - 19/11/2009 04:38:31 PM 714 Views

It's common sense Etzel - 19/11/2009 04:40:01 PM 664 Views

No, it's based on absolutely nothing Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:50:30 PM 727 Views

If you agree that there are stronger damane than Alivia... Etzel - 19/11/2009 05:00:05 PM 648 Views

I didn't say that Sidious - 19/11/2009 05:07:33 PM 650 Views

Well, I think you are wrong... Etzel - 19/11/2009 05:35:27 PM 646 Views

Glad to have you back. Now for the arguments to start! Shannow - 19/11/2009 04:29:01 PM 763 Views

Hmm... Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:47:12 PM 767 Views

Actually, you are the one placing Lanfear immensely high, my list reduced the strength difference... Shannow - 19/11/2009 05:05:18 PM 836 Views

But I'm not Sidious - 19/11/2009 05:17:05 PM 738 Views

Let me ask you this... Shannow - 19/11/2009 10:13:12 PM 781 Views

Very good point *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 01:38:55 AM 335 Views

One possibility Rand al'Thor - 20/11/2009 03:18:55 AM 704 Views

All assumption Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:11:20 AM 646 Views

Why introduce that concept, if it is just of academic importance? Shannow - 20/11/2009 07:41:54 AM 620 Views

You don't know the significance of it at all Sidious - 20/11/2009 03:14:46 PM 736 Views

Why? Shannow - 20/11/2009 03:17:51 PM 1258 Views

Re: Why? Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:30:50 PM 604 Views

How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... Shannow - 20/11/2009 05:07:39 PM 645 Views

Re: How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... Sidious - 21/11/2009 10:55:47 AM 632 Views

Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then? Shannow - 21/11/2009 01:53:28 PM 734 Views

Probably not in this case Sidious - 21/11/2009 11:34:25 PM 621 Views

Your rankings hinge ENTIRELY on whether you have Graendal correctly placed. Logain - 20/11/2009 03:24:22 PM 569 Views

Yeah... entirely

Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:33:45 PM 606 Views

Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. Logain - 20/11/2009 09:57:52 PM 621 Views

Re: Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. Sidious - 21/11/2009 10:48:16 AM 685 Views

Re: Let me ask you this... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:30:27 PM 652 Views

*correction*Re: Let me ask you this... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:32:02 PM 624 Views

my comments w/ edit kcf - 19/11/2009 04:37:27 PM 706 Views

Re: my comments w/ edit Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:54:30 PM 763 Views

Re: my comments w/ edit lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:42:15 PM 578 Views

What ever happened to all teh info from wotmania? Especially the FAQs? *NM* callandor1000 - 19/11/2009 05:01:45 PM 418 Views

http://13depository.blogspot.com/ *NM* TaskmasterJack - 19/11/2009 05:31:01 PM 347 Views

Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post TaskmasterJack - 19/11/2009 05:39:10 PM 732 Views

Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post -- What about Dexterity?? Tedtheman - 19/11/2009 06:44:31 PM 736 Views

This perfectly matches my understanding of the situation. Rand al'Thor - 19/11/2009 07:06:31 PM 602 Views

Seems good, except I'd bunch up the upper levels and place Nynaeve a little higher. *NM* fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 09:46:16 PM 381 Views

Agreed! This make more sense than the previous list *NM* Basara - 20/11/2009 12:07:37 AM 384 Views

Too many levels Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/11/2009 01:48:24 AM 725 Views

You are completely right about too many levels. Logain - 20/11/2009 04:17:17 AM 606 Views

21 levels is largely a myth kcf - 20/11/2009 04:27:27 AM 613 Views

Re: 21 levels is largely a myth DomA - 20/11/2009 01:51:17 PM 747 Views

Thanks for the post. Interesting stuff there. *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 03:14:12 PM 318 Views

That's good to know. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/11/2009 07:56:41 PM 588 Views

I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. Logain - 20/11/2009 04:14:40 AM 733 Views

I thought of something else to support my upper limit theory on gateways Logain - 20/11/2009 01:53:05 PM 725 Views

Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 08:27:22 PM 755 Views

Re: Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve Logain - 28/11/2009 10:05:15 PM 837 Views

Talaan has be channeling for 6 or 7 years darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 10:56:12 PM 648 Views

Re: I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. taura-tierno - 30/12/2009 12:37:40 AM 1057 Views

Agree with nearly all Lord o' Salv - 20/11/2009 04:43:47 AM 610 Views

more hopefully to come kcf - 20/11/2009 08:15:00 PM 590 Views

Thanks KCF, that's a great question to ask. Shannow - 20/11/2009 08:28:32 PM 815 Views

I'm the same way. I should be studying for law school finals, but I'm distracted. *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 09:45:46 PM 296 Views

A little more evidence that Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 12:12:37 AM 616 Views

I agree that Graendal is the 2nd most powerful woman Forsaken darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 04:07:00 PM 578 Views

It's possible Logain - 30/11/2009 08:23:28 PM 586 Views

Re: It's possible darius_sedai - 01/12/2009 06:18:56 PM 699 Views

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<quote>I admit freely that Graendal could be as low as Mesaana, or indeed as high as you place her. But my point is, we have no evidence whatsoever to decide that.

You base a large part of your argument on Graendal's statement that women stronger than her were very rare. Are we to take it then that Graendal was the ONLY member of the Forsaken who did not overrate her own abilities?

Because based on the examples of the Forsaken self assessments so far, Graendal's very rare statement probably means she only bumped into 1 or 2 people EVERY DAY who exceeded her in strength.

I said that tongue in cheek, but the truth is, if Graendal's own opinion of her supposed strength is what you base your assessment on, then it certainly leaves a lot of room for questioning.

And besides, other than Moghedien, ALL of the Forsaken were of rare strength. So Graendal's quote tells us nothing really about where she lies compared to the other female Forsaken.

What I'm therefore pointing out is that your list, while it could certainly be true, is based on a heck of a lot of conjecture at this point in time.</quote>

It's a quote you've been happy to use for years before this, and now suddenly it's unsuitable to you because it contests your theory in some way.

In fact, Graendal isn't hyperinflating anything - the quote originates from her own admission that Cyndane is stronger than her in the Power. If anything, this is a rare quote from a Forsaken conceding that another channeler has an advantage over them.

She said finding a woman of greater strength was exceedingly rare, even in her own age. She's not saying she could defeat Cyndane, or that she is more skilled. It's a tangeable and measurable aspect of the One Power, which we all know.

Of course, what the statement means to you is your decision. To me, when Graendal says that a woman of greater strength is 'exceedingly rare indeed', it indicates that only Lanfear held such a place above her, and that her strength is one of her assets among the women. Still, if you want to believe that Semirhage, Mesaana and Lanfear are these exceedingly rare women, then by all means, indulge yourself.
</quote>

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