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Since Shannow seems to think disagreeing with him is EVIL... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 21/11/2009 08:38:55 PM
I'm going to go ahead and continue the discussion with you...



Fionwe - Are there really limits on the durability of a wall of air? When lifting something with air we see it but once you have something in place I don't remember any case where it can break down. Things made with the power are described as eternal and indestructible no matter what mundane (not one power) power is placed against them.

Of course there are limits. Gravity is a force, after all. And if gravitational forces can be countered only up to a certain limit, then the same will apply to other forces.
For example, think of a very very heavy truck. A strong channeler can use a weave of air and push it along, right? But can Sorliea do the same with a very weak thread of air? Obviously, no.
Similarly, look at the air shields used to protect against lightning. Since lightning bolts are secondary effects of the One Power, there is no actual OP in them. If non-OP forces cannot penetrate shields of air, the flimsiest of shields woven by the weakest fo channelers should be able to protect against lightning from the strongest of channelers. Obviously, this is not true.

RJ's answer was that non-OP forces cannot destroy OP weaves. That makes sense since OP weaves seem to be some kind of non-diffusable energy field. Earthen forces like gravity have a very tiny effect on diffusable energy like light, so it makes sense that the OP is not affected.

But this doesn't mean that the effect created by the weave can withstand any force. Look at Siuan lifting Bryne. She couldn't, because she was too weak. But her weave did not break, it just did not have the intended effect.

Same with Siuan's sword of air. She says it is strong as most steel, but that still means it is not indestructible!

Again, with stopping armies. If it was as simple as making a really thin folm of Air, which no one can pass through, any Aes Sedai, even Daigian, could simply weave one and place it front of an attacking army, and there, the war is ended.

Obviously, it doesn't work that way.

Another bit of proof. Egwene says that wards that stop sound are not made to stop anything as solid as a body. The implication is that the ward works by preventing air from moving through it. When a person moves across such a ward, the weave doesn't break, but they don't even feel anything resisting their passage, because obviously the ward is not strong enough.

I think the same will be the case here. With the vast forces in play, the weave will stay, but will no longer be able to have the intended effect.
Going to the specifics of this theory, a shield of air against vacuum has to withstand a force of 1 Atmosphere which is no biggy. We see Rand do it when warding against the differential of one against a half atmosphere when he sit atop Dragonmount.

The force is actually not 1 atmosphere, but one atmosphere into the area of the Gateway. And one pascal is 1 Newton per meter square.
The forces faced are much greater than you think, however, since the fluid flow here is not just influenced by a difference in pressure, but also by the low temperature and gravity in outer space.

When you consider water going into space, the fact that it will vaporize in the low pressure of space is also a factor to consider.

Lastly, Rand did not make a direct Gateway to Dragonmount. He skimmed. So we don't know what kind of breeze he would have created had he Traveled there.

To ward against the pressure of sea bottom is more problematic since there the pressure is 100s of atmospheres. Still walls of air are supposed to be indestructible. Are they weaker then a sheet of thick iron (which is capable of protecting a submarine from such pressures)? I suppose if he's desperate he can even make the cage out of cuendilar.

This was never a problem, as far as I was concerned. But what happens when a Gateway is opened into outer space from below the sea? Even a cuendillar cage is useless, because the whole cage will be sucked out.

Supposing it works, there are 1,260,000,000,000,000,000,000 liters of waters on our planet (1.26 X 10^21 liters). If you lose 10 liters per second with these Gateways, it would take 399,260,000,000 years (4 X 10^11 years)! to lose it all to space. A ridiculously long time, much longer than the approximate age of the Earth. And if you didn't place this Gateway in space very far from the planet those escaping waters would just be captured back by the planet's gravitational field and fall back on the planet.

Of course, the problem with this is that water will be sucked out at a rate much larger than ten liters per second. Also, Shannow spoke of multiple Gateways to achieve this.
Anyway the bigger question this thread made me think about is:
Do inanimate objects move on their own across a Gateway? I think the answer is no. Only living being have the capacity to decide to move. Inanimate objects do no though energy (like light) does.

Nope. We see the cold wind from Seanchan enter Rand's room in tFOH. We've snow come through, as well as rain, I think.

Edit to add - I didn't understand the part in tGS about the new technique Nynaeve finds. What is it?

See below.
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If the Forsaken really wanted to defeat the Light - gateways at the bottom of the ocean... - 20/11/2009 02:02:59 PM 1860 Views
I've actually thought that would be a great way to make a power plant. - 20/11/2009 02:48:21 PM 875 Views
I t doesn't defy EXACTLY the laws of conservation - 20/11/2009 03:02:16 PM 1173 Views
The Forsaken don't think like that - 20/11/2009 02:57:27 PM 891 Views
What in the world... outer space?? This is fantasy, not sci-fi *NM* - 20/11/2009 03:08:26 PM 442 Views
RJ has stated that channelers can Travel to other planets, even other solar systems... - 20/11/2009 03:12:37 PM 776 Views
OK... - 20/11/2009 05:15:32 PM 734 Views
Tied off gateways dissappear after a while *NM* - 20/11/2009 03:15:56 PM 394 Views
No. Only if the knott is deliberately tied loosely... - 20/11/2009 03:20:18 PM 712 Views
This brings up an "Evil Wins, What Next?" scenario I've always wondered about - 20/11/2009 03:39:14 PM 852 Views
Nah - 20/11/2009 04:12:27 PM 722 Views
Read Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy. =) *NM* - 20/11/2009 07:18:01 PM 423 Views
They would have to know the bottom of the ocean very well to create. *NM* - 20/11/2009 05:02:50 PM 362 Views
Wouldn't be too hard, given Rand's trick. *NM* - 20/11/2009 05:12:22 PM 408 Views
You're kidding right? - 20/11/2009 05:31:36 PM 737 Views
Yeah, this has actually been discussed - 20/11/2009 05:50:21 PM 946 Views
Re: Yeah, this has actually been discussed - 21/08/2010 02:19:15 AM 746 Views
Gateway "magic" accounts for this, or most gateways would have STRONG breeze - 20/11/2009 06:43:44 PM 826 Views
Very conducive places, the bottom of the sea and outer space... - 20/11/2009 07:01:56 PM 4201 Views
Knee jerk disagreement without thinking beyond: "I don't like the idea so let's flame it..." - 20/11/2009 07:12:38 PM 966 Views
Actually... - 20/11/2009 09:15:39 PM 804 Views
And your response is even sillier ideas? Think for more than three minutes before responding again. - 20/11/2009 11:08:59 PM 733 Views
I must say... this has been highly entertaining! *NM* - 21/11/2009 01:59:51 AM 715 Views
Yeah... I've been chuckling at this whole thread - 21/11/2009 10:23:51 AM 858 Views
You need to go read FoH again... - 21/11/2009 03:35:01 AM 848 Views
The Silliness Continues-Part IV of Shannow's crazy ways to commit suicide... - 21/11/2009 05:44:34 AM 742 Views
Struggling a bit are you? - 21/11/2009 06:30:13 AM 813 Views
On the limits of power - 21/11/2009 07:32:44 AM 784 Views
Great question. These fundamental issues are the REAL challenges to be overcome, yes... - 21/11/2009 07:50:46 AM 756 Views
Thanks - 21/11/2009 08:03:28 AM 788 Views
Oh, and regarding the new Travelling skill Nynaeve mentions in tGS... - 21/11/2009 08:03:45 AM 799 Views
Ah, thanks - 21/11/2009 08:10:48 AM 728 Views
Actually, I just reread that passage, and now I'm confused again... - 21/11/2009 08:30:17 AM 751 Views
Its pretty simple... - 21/11/2009 08:07:14 PM 709 Views
You don't learn a place when you Travel TO it... - 21/11/2009 08:23:11 PM 735 Views
The same issue again... - 21/11/2009 08:58:37 PM 719 Views
No, you're wrong, and here are the quotes... - 22/11/2009 06:51:06 AM 924 Views
That might mean nothing... - 22/11/2009 06:37:33 PM 826 Views
That does seem inconsistent... - 21/11/2009 09:25:52 PM 969 Views
Since Shannow seems to think disagreeing with him is EVIL... - 21/11/2009 08:38:55 PM 771 Views
Re: On the limits of power - 20/08/2010 06:25:19 PM 727 Views
Such a geek - 20/08/2010 08:08:11 PM 918 Views
The One Power is completely impenetrable to regular matter - 21/11/2009 08:16:58 AM 694 Views
Balefire is much, much easier . - 20/11/2009 08:50:24 PM 738 Views
The Forsaken DON'T want to defeat the Light. - 20/11/2009 09:18:42 PM 841 Views
Why didn't Frodo and Sam just ride the Eagles to Mt. Doom, and toss the Ring then fly back? *NM* - 20/11/2009 10:35:17 PM 405 Views
lol Straight from www.HowMoviesShouldHaveEnded.com *NM* - 21/11/2009 01:15:45 AM 375 Views
The Forsaken are still doing the Light's will. - 21/11/2009 01:42:16 AM 721 Views
Actually here's an even simpler idea: open a gateway into a Black Hole. *NM* - 21/11/2009 01:53:38 AM 484 Views
You can't...there aren't any Black Holes close enough... - 21/11/2009 03:22:38 AM 756 Views
Doubtful - 21/11/2009 03:29:35 AM 701 Views
Let me clarify...you CAN Travel to other solar system... - 21/11/2009 03:39:36 AM 791 Views
You're right, I just went back and checked the sources - 24/11/2009 12:04:09 AM 702 Views
Surely Moridin could channel enough of the True Power... *NM* - 21/11/2009 01:19:05 PM 334 Views
Moridin cannot channel any more of the True Power than he can of the One Power. - 21/11/2009 01:58:30 PM 694 Views
He managed to do great fits with the power he had. - 21/11/2009 05:12:52 PM 673 Views

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