Since Shannow seems to think disagreeing with him is EVIL...
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 21/11/2009 08:38:55 PM
I'm going to go ahead and continue the discussion with you...
Fionwe - Are there really limits on the durability of a wall of air? When lifting something with air we see it but once you have something in place I don't remember any case where it can break down. Things made with the power are described as eternal and indestructible no matter what mundane (not one power) power is placed against them.
Of course there are limits. Gravity is a force, after all. And if gravitational forces can be countered only up to a certain limit, then the same will apply to other forces.
For example, think of a very very heavy truck. A strong channeler can use a weave of air and push it along, right? But can Sorliea do the same with a very weak thread of air? Obviously, no.
Similarly, look at the air shields used to protect against lightning. Since lightning bolts are secondary effects of the One Power, there is no actual OP in them. If non-OP forces cannot penetrate shields of air, the flimsiest of shields woven by the weakest fo channelers should be able to protect against lightning from the strongest of channelers. Obviously, this is not true.
RJ's answer was that non-OP forces cannot destroy OP weaves. That makes sense since OP weaves seem to be some kind of non-diffusable energy field. Earthen forces like gravity have a very tiny effect on diffusable energy like light, so it makes sense that the OP is not affected.
But this doesn't mean that the effect created by the weave can withstand any force. Look at Siuan lifting Bryne. She couldn't, because she was too weak. But her weave did not break, it just did not have the intended effect.
Same with Siuan's sword of air. She says it is strong as most steel, but that still means it is not indestructible!
Again, with stopping armies. If it was as simple as making a really thin folm of Air, which no one can pass through, any Aes Sedai, even Daigian, could simply weave one and place it front of an attacking army, and there, the war is ended.
Obviously, it doesn't work that way.
Another bit of proof. Egwene says that wards that stop sound are not made to stop anything as solid as a body. The implication is that the ward works by preventing air from moving through it. When a person moves across such a ward, the weave doesn't break, but they don't even feel anything resisting their passage, because obviously the ward is not strong enough.
I think the same will be the case here. With the vast forces in play, the weave will stay, but will no longer be able to have the intended effect.
The force is actually not 1 atmosphere, but one atmosphere into the area of the Gateway. And one pascal is 1 Newton per meter square.
The forces faced are much greater than you think, however, since the fluid flow here is not just influenced by a difference in pressure, but also by the low temperature and gravity in outer space.
When you consider water going into space, the fact that it will vaporize in the low pressure of space is also a factor to consider.
Lastly, Rand did not make a direct Gateway to Dragonmount. He skimmed. So we don't know what kind of breeze he would have created had he Traveled there.
This was never a problem, as far as I was concerned. But what happens when a Gateway is opened into outer space from below the sea? Even a cuendillar cage is useless, because the whole cage will be sucked out.
Of course, the problem with this is that water will be sucked out at a rate much larger than ten liters per second. Also, Shannow spoke of multiple Gateways to achieve this.
Nope. We see the cold wind from Seanchan enter Rand's room in tFOH. We've snow come through, as well as rain, I think.
See below.
Fionwe - Are there really limits on the durability of a wall of air? When lifting something with air we see it but once you have something in place I don't remember any case where it can break down. Things made with the power are described as eternal and indestructible no matter what mundane (not one power) power is placed against them.
Of course there are limits. Gravity is a force, after all. And if gravitational forces can be countered only up to a certain limit, then the same will apply to other forces.
For example, think of a very very heavy truck. A strong channeler can use a weave of air and push it along, right? But can Sorliea do the same with a very weak thread of air? Obviously, no.
Similarly, look at the air shields used to protect against lightning. Since lightning bolts are secondary effects of the One Power, there is no actual OP in them. If non-OP forces cannot penetrate shields of air, the flimsiest of shields woven by the weakest fo channelers should be able to protect against lightning from the strongest of channelers. Obviously, this is not true.
RJ's answer was that non-OP forces cannot destroy OP weaves. That makes sense since OP weaves seem to be some kind of non-diffusable energy field. Earthen forces like gravity have a very tiny effect on diffusable energy like light, so it makes sense that the OP is not affected.
But this doesn't mean that the effect created by the weave can withstand any force. Look at Siuan lifting Bryne. She couldn't, because she was too weak. But her weave did not break, it just did not have the intended effect.
Same with Siuan's sword of air. She says it is strong as most steel, but that still means it is not indestructible!
Again, with stopping armies. If it was as simple as making a really thin folm of Air, which no one can pass through, any Aes Sedai, even Daigian, could simply weave one and place it front of an attacking army, and there, the war is ended.
Obviously, it doesn't work that way.
Another bit of proof. Egwene says that wards that stop sound are not made to stop anything as solid as a body. The implication is that the ward works by preventing air from moving through it. When a person moves across such a ward, the weave doesn't break, but they don't even feel anything resisting their passage, because obviously the ward is not strong enough.
I think the same will be the case here. With the vast forces in play, the weave will stay, but will no longer be able to have the intended effect.
Going to the specifics of this theory, a shield of air against vacuum has to withstand a force of 1 Atmosphere which is no biggy. We see Rand do it when warding against the differential of one against a half atmosphere when he sit atop Dragonmount.
The force is actually not 1 atmosphere, but one atmosphere into the area of the Gateway. And one pascal is 1 Newton per meter square.
The forces faced are much greater than you think, however, since the fluid flow here is not just influenced by a difference in pressure, but also by the low temperature and gravity in outer space.
When you consider water going into space, the fact that it will vaporize in the low pressure of space is also a factor to consider.
Lastly, Rand did not make a direct Gateway to Dragonmount. He skimmed. So we don't know what kind of breeze he would have created had he Traveled there.
To ward against the pressure of sea bottom is more problematic since there the pressure is 100s of atmospheres. Still walls of air are supposed to be indestructible. Are they weaker then a sheet of thick iron (which is capable of protecting a submarine from such pressures)? I suppose if he's desperate he can even make the cage out of cuendilar.
This was never a problem, as far as I was concerned. But what happens when a Gateway is opened into outer space from below the sea? Even a cuendillar cage is useless, because the whole cage will be sucked out.
Supposing it works, there are 1,260,000,000,000,000,000,000 liters of waters on our planet (1.26 X 10^21 liters). If you lose 10 liters per second with these Gateways, it would take 399,260,000,000 years (4 X 10^11 years)! to lose it all to space. A ridiculously long time, much longer than the approximate age of the Earth. And if you didn't place this Gateway in space very far from the planet those escaping waters would just be captured back by the planet's gravitational field and fall back on the planet.
Of course, the problem with this is that water will be sucked out at a rate much larger than ten liters per second. Also, Shannow spoke of multiple Gateways to achieve this.
Anyway the bigger question this thread made me think about is:
Do inanimate objects move on their own across a Gateway? I think the answer is no. Only living being have the capacity to decide to move. Inanimate objects do no though energy (like light) does.
Do inanimate objects move on their own across a Gateway? I think the answer is no. Only living being have the capacity to decide to move. Inanimate objects do no though energy (like light) does.
Nope. We see the cold wind from Seanchan enter Rand's room in tFOH. We've snow come through, as well as rain, I think.
Edit to add - I didn't understand the part in tGS about the new technique Nynaeve finds. What is it?
See below.
If the Forsaken really wanted to defeat the Light - gateways at the bottom of the ocean...
20/11/2009 02:02:59 PM
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I've actually thought that would be a great way to make a power plant.
20/11/2009 02:48:21 PM
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The Forsaken don't think like that
20/11/2009 02:57:27 PM
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I specifically referred to Ishamael, who shares none of those motivations with the other Forsaken...
20/11/2009 03:11:26 PM
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What in the world... outer space?? This is fantasy, not sci-fi *NM*
20/11/2009 03:08:26 PM
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RJ has stated that channelers can Travel to other planets, even other solar systems...
20/11/2009 03:12:37 PM
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I didn't expect him to answer that question, it was just something I was wondering about
20/11/2009 04:06:53 PM
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OK...
20/11/2009 05:15:32 PM
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Moghedien talks about how they travelled to other stars in the Age of Legends...
20/11/2009 06:09:17 PM
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Because it is a world that is undergoing an industrial revolution
21/11/2009 01:19:28 AM
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This brings up an "Evil Wins, What Next?" scenario I've always wondered about
20/11/2009 03:39:14 PM
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The DO doesn't have the motivations of the forsaken, he doesn't think like a human...
22/11/2009 03:38:15 PM
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They would have to know the bottom of the ocean very well to create. *NM*
20/11/2009 05:02:50 PM
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Wouldn't be too hard, given Rand's trick. *NM*
20/11/2009 05:12:22 PM
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Intense preasure would kill you before you could weave or a hell of a shield bubble *NM*
20/11/2009 07:01:58 PM
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Gateway "magic" accounts for this, or most gateways would have STRONG breeze
20/11/2009 06:43:44 PM
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Very conducive places, the bottom of the sea and outer space...
20/11/2009 07:01:56 PM
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Knee jerk disagreement without thinking beyond: "I don't like the idea so let's flame it..."
20/11/2009 07:12:38 PM
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And your response is even sillier ideas? Think for more than three minutes before responding again.
20/11/2009 11:08:59 PM
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You need to go read FoH again...
21/11/2009 03:35:01 AM
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The Silliness Continues-Part IV of Shannow's crazy ways to commit suicide...
21/11/2009 05:44:34 AM
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On the limits of power
21/11/2009 07:32:44 AM
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Great question. These fundamental issues are the REAL challenges to be overcome, yes...
21/11/2009 07:50:46 AM
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Fluids CAN move across gateways on their own. We saw it with the draft of wind in tGS. *NM*
21/11/2009 01:32:46 PM
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Oh, and regarding the new Travelling skill Nynaeve mentions in tGS...
21/11/2009 08:03:45 AM
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Ah, thanks
21/11/2009 08:10:48 AM
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Actually, I just reread that passage, and now I'm confused again...
21/11/2009 08:30:17 AM
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Its pretty simple...
21/11/2009 08:07:14 PM
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You don't learn a place when you Travel TO it...
21/11/2009 08:23:11 PM
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The same issue again...
21/11/2009 08:58:37 PM
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They might have shared Gateways, so only those who wove them know the area? *NM*
21/11/2009 10:00:04 PM
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That has to be the first sensible question broached in this thread...
21/11/2009 09:18:59 PM
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Since Shannow seems to think disagreeing with him is EVIL...
21/11/2009 08:38:55 PM
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The simplest explanation'd be that GWs can't be opened in water, since it moves/changes constantly
20/11/2009 07:27:08 PM
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Or balefire Rand. Wait a few generations near Dragonmount, kidnap all children born on the slopes...
20/11/2009 09:07:46 PM
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Why didn't Frodo and Sam just ride the Eagles to Mt. Doom, and toss the Ring then fly back? *NM*
20/11/2009 10:35:17 PM
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Actually here's an even simpler idea: open a gateway into a Black Hole. *NM*
21/11/2009 01:53:38 AM
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You can't...there aren't any Black Holes close enough...
21/11/2009 03:22:38 AM
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Doubtful
21/11/2009 03:29:35 AM
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Surely Moridin could channel enough of the True Power... *NM*
21/11/2009 01:19:05 PM
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Moridin cannot channel any more of the True Power than he can of the One Power.
21/11/2009 01:58:30 PM
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