Wheel of Time Messageboard: Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then? by Shannow

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Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then? Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/11/2009 01:53:28 PM

About your last sentence. Who says Graendal and Semirhage are not on the same level? Give me one quote that proves otherwise?

In fact, give me a convincing argument that even strongly SUGGESTS otherwise?

I was talking about Cyndane.

We don't have a single comparative quote between Graendal and Semirhage, or even between Graendal and Nynaeve, which would allow us to extrapolate to Semirhage.

Well exactly! So what's all this crap about the thematic significance of Semirhage being stronger than Cyndane. Even you admit that Semirhage is an enigma.

I just chuckled to myself at your last comment.

May I ask then, after admitting what you just did in that last paragraph, on what possible basis do you put Graendal THREE LEVELS higher than Semirhage?

Graendal is of very rare strength and therefore one of the stronger Forsaken women. Therefore she is one of the few Forsaken who exceeds Nynaeve. Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage in all probability according to Brandon. Someryn from her quotes is probably one of the six because of her quotes on her strength, but she implies that Graendal exceeds her.

So there, that's my short story on why they're separated by THREE LEVELS ... what makes you sure that Semirhage is strong in the Power except for her being respected - a fact which I find flawed in any case.

I don't understand you, Shannow. It's like you can't comprehend that someone like Semirhage might not be close to top strength in saidar. If she was as strong as Moiraine she'd still be a legendary torturer, you know. It's her craft that makes her deadly. No one has ever referred to her strength. Even Lews Therin said that her reputation as a torturer loomed so heavily that he forgot how dangerous she was otherwise. Aginor is immensely strong in saidin, but he's a weak personality and Graendal mocks him, and Demandred. I've never found strength extrapolations like this to be useful.

I admit freely that Graendal could be as low as Mesaana, or indeed as high as you place her. But my point is, we have no evidence whatsoever to decide that.

You base a large part of your argument on Graendal's statement that women stronger than her were very rare. Are we to take it then that Graendal was the ONLY member of the Forsaken who did not overrate her own abilities?

Because based on the examples of the Forsaken self assessments so far, Graendal's very rare statement probably means she only bumped into 1 or 2 people EVERY DAY who exceeded her in strength.

I said that tongue in cheek, but the truth is, if Graendal's own opinion of her supposed strength is what you base your assessment on, then it certainly leaves a lot of room for questioning.

And besides, other than Moghedien, ALL of the Forsaken were of rare strength. So Graendal's quote tells us nothing really about where she lies compared to the other female Forsaken.

What I'm therefore pointing out is that your list, while it could certainly be true, is based on a heck of a lot of conjecture at this point in time.

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Female Forsaken strength : a new post Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:12:35 PM 1655 Views

Except... Etzel - 19/11/2009 04:26:32 PM 699 Views

There's no evidence for that Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:31:17 PM 651 Views

I agree with Sidious - we have no evidence at this time, so she should remain off the list kcf - 19/11/2009 04:38:31 PM 654 Views

It's common sense Etzel - 19/11/2009 04:40:01 PM 632 Views

No, it's based on absolutely nothing Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:50:30 PM 667 Views

If you agree that there are stronger damane than Alivia... Etzel - 19/11/2009 05:00:05 PM 591 Views

I didn't say that Sidious - 19/11/2009 05:07:33 PM 606 Views

Well, I think you are wrong... Etzel - 19/11/2009 05:35:27 PM 590 Views

Glad to have you back. Now for the arguments to start! Shannow - 19/11/2009 04:29:01 PM 707 Views

Hmm... Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:47:12 PM 710 Views

Actually, you are the one placing Lanfear immensely high, my list reduced the strength difference... Shannow - 19/11/2009 05:05:18 PM 778 Views

But I'm not Sidious - 19/11/2009 05:17:05 PM 685 Views

Let me ask you this... Shannow - 19/11/2009 10:13:12 PM 730 Views

Very good point *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 01:38:55 AM 313 Views

One possibility Rand al'Thor - 20/11/2009 03:18:55 AM 641 Views

All assumption Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:11:20 AM 580 Views

Why introduce that concept, if it is just of academic importance? Shannow - 20/11/2009 07:41:54 AM 565 Views

You don't know the significance of it at all Sidious - 20/11/2009 03:14:46 PM 676 Views

Why? Shannow - 20/11/2009 03:17:51 PM 1200 Views

Re: Why? Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:30:50 PM 547 Views

How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... Shannow - 20/11/2009 05:07:39 PM 585 Views

Re: How can you argue in such a way and still keep a straight face (presumably)... Sidious - 21/11/2009 10:55:47 AM 573 Views

Is Graendal the only Forsaken NOT to overstate her own ability then? Shannow - 21/11/2009 01:53:28 PM 680 Views

Probably not in this case Sidious - 21/11/2009 11:34:25 PM 562 Views

Your rankings hinge ENTIRELY on whether you have Graendal correctly placed. Logain - 20/11/2009 03:24:22 PM 524 Views

Yeah... entirely

Sidious - 20/11/2009 04:33:45 PM 543 Views

Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. Logain - 20/11/2009 09:57:52 PM 569 Views

Re: Okay, "entirely" was a bad choice of word. Sidious - 21/11/2009 10:48:16 AM 628 Views

Re: Let me ask you this... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:30:27 PM 598 Views

*correction*Re: Let me ask you this... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:32:02 PM 565 Views

my comments w/ edit kcf - 19/11/2009 04:37:27 PM 651 Views

Re: my comments w/ edit Sidious - 19/11/2009 04:54:30 PM 716 Views

Re: my comments w/ edit lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:42:15 PM 523 Views

What ever happened to all teh info from wotmania? Especially the FAQs? *NM* callandor1000 - 19/11/2009 05:01:45 PM 397 Views

http://13depository.blogspot.com/ *NM* TaskmasterJack - 19/11/2009 05:31:01 PM 321 Views

Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post TaskmasterJack - 19/11/2009 05:39:10 PM 663 Views

Re: Female Forsaken strength : a new post -- What about Dexterity?? Tedtheman - 19/11/2009 06:44:31 PM 674 Views

This perfectly matches my understanding of the situation. Rand al'Thor - 19/11/2009 07:06:31 PM 544 Views

Seems good, except I'd bunch up the upper levels and place Nynaeve a little higher. *NM* fionwe1987 - 19/11/2009 09:46:16 PM 354 Views

Agreed! This make more sense than the previous list *NM* Basara - 20/11/2009 12:07:37 AM 356 Views

Too many levels Rurouni_Kenshin - 20/11/2009 01:48:24 AM 675 Views

You are completely right about too many levels. Logain - 20/11/2009 04:17:17 AM 556 Views

21 levels is largely a myth kcf - 20/11/2009 04:27:27 AM 556 Views

Re: 21 levels is largely a myth DomA - 20/11/2009 01:51:17 PM 691 Views

Thanks for the post. Interesting stuff there. *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 03:14:12 PM 295 Views

That's good to know. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 20/11/2009 07:56:41 PM 523 Views

I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. Logain - 20/11/2009 04:14:40 AM 665 Views

I thought of something else to support my upper limit theory on gateways Logain - 20/11/2009 01:53:05 PM 662 Views

Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 08:27:22 PM 691 Views

Re: Talaan is not stronger than Nynaeve Logain - 28/11/2009 10:05:15 PM 778 Views

Talaan has be channeling for 6 or 7 years darius_sedai - 28/11/2009 10:56:12 PM 595 Views

Re: I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. taura-tierno - 30/12/2009 12:37:40 AM 1001 Views

Agree with nearly all Lord o' Salv - 20/11/2009 04:43:47 AM 557 Views

more hopefully to come kcf - 20/11/2009 08:15:00 PM 534 Views

Thanks KCF, that's a great question to ask. Shannow - 20/11/2009 08:28:32 PM 758 Views

I'm the same way. I should be studying for law school finals, but I'm distracted. *NM* Logain - 20/11/2009 09:45:46 PM 274 Views

A little more evidence that Nynaeve is stronger than Semirhage darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 12:12:37 AM 553 Views

I agree that Graendal is the 2nd most powerful woman Forsaken darius_sedai - 29/11/2009 04:07:00 PM 522 Views

It's possible Logain - 30/11/2009 08:23:28 PM 528 Views

Re: It's possible darius_sedai - 01/12/2009 06:18:56 PM 641 Views

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<quote id="51562">
<quote id="51540"><quote id="51169"><quote id="51138">
<quote>About your last sentence. Who says Graendal and Semirhage are not on the same level? Give me one quote that proves otherwise?

In fact, give me a convincing argument that even strongly SUGGESTS otherwise?</quote>

I was talking about Cyndane.

<quote>We don't have a single comparative quote between Graendal and Semirhage, or even between Graendal and Nynaeve, which would allow us to extrapolate to Semirhage.</quote>

Well exactly! So what's all this crap about the thematic significance of Semirhage being stronger than Cyndane. Even you admit that Semirhage is an enigma.</quote>

I just chuckled to myself at your last comment.

May I ask then, after admitting what you just did in that last paragraph, on what possible basis do you put Graendal THREE LEVELS higher than Semirhage?</quote>

So there, that's my short story on why they're separated by THREE LEVELS ... what makes you sure that Semirhage is strong in the Power except for her being respected - a fact which I find flawed in any case.

I don't understand you, Shannow. It's like you can't comprehend that someone like Semirhage might not be close to top strength in saidar. If she was as strong as Moiraine she'd still be a legendary torturer, you know. It's her craft that makes her deadly. No one has ever referred to her strength. Even Lews Therin said that her reputation as a torturer loomed so heavily that he forgot how dangerous she was otherwise. Aginor is immensely strong in saidin, but he's a weak personality and Graendal mocks him, and Demandred. I've never found strength extrapolations like this to be useful.</quote>

I admit freely that Graendal could be as low as Mesaana, or indeed as high as you place her. But my point is, we have no evidence whatsoever to decide that.

You base a large part of your argument on Graendal's statement that women stronger than her were very rare. Are we to take it then that Graendal was the ONLY member of the Forsaken who did not overrate her own abilities?

Because based on the examples of the Forsaken self assessments so far, Graendal's very rare statement probably means she only bumped into 1 or 2 people EVERY DAY who exceeded her in strength.

I said that tongue in cheek, but the truth is, if Graendal's own opinion of her supposed strength is what you base your assessment on, then it certainly leaves a lot of room for questioning.

And besides, other than Moghedien, ALL of the Forsaken were of rare strength. So Graendal's quote tells us nothing really about where she lies compared to the other female Forsaken.

What I'm therefore pointing out is that your list, while it could certainly be true, is based on a heck of a lot of conjecture at this point in time.
</quote>

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